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Welcome To Roj Bash Kurdistan 

Peace in the country, Peace in the world... M.Kemal Ataturk

A place to talk about domestic politics in Middle East (Iran, Iraq , Turkey, Syria) Also includes topics about Assyrian, Armenian, Chaldean .

PostAuthor: piskrt » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:12 pm

Piling wrote:At this time, Armenians lived between the Ottoman empire and Russian empire. They disputed some borders, ok, but I don't see how Armenian church living under Ottoman's rule could have made a such statement within Western Armenia. So I suppose that these call came from Armenians linving within Tsarist territories, in Eastern Armenia.


What hinders them from doing do? After all, the Greek Orthodox Church was able to do the same thing in the Greek İndependence War and its aftermath. Why would Armenian church be more loyal?

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PostAuthor: Piling » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:15 pm

I guess that these allegations of an Armenian calling to a general massacre of Turks had been forged just before and after the genocide, to justify it.
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PostAuthor: Piling » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:19 pm

I guess that these allegations of an Armenian calling to a general massacre of Turks had been forged just before and after the genocide, to justify it. Russian Armenians were hostiles to Ottomans empire, but Armenians in Turkey supported the Young Turks movement in 1908, in fact all the minorities or modernists saw a hope to reform the Ottoman society.

But Young Turk government was at last a nationalist and pro-centralization regime, and deceived much people. By the way if Armenians were defiant, they had right for in 1915-1916 their total destruction had been plannified in Anatolia.
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PostAuthor: piskrt » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:19 pm

Piling wrote:I guess that these allegations of an Armenian calling to a general massacre of Turks had been forged just before and after the genocide, to justify it.


Nope! Don't think so! It is declared long before the WW1 started. That is why they were armed by Russians and French.

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PostAuthor: Piling » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:22 pm

Most of Armenians living in Turkey during the war were faithful to their regime and joined Ottoman army. They had been disarmed by the regime, just in the aim to be massacred.

The first massacres of Turks and Kurds by Western Armenians were after the genocide, as reprisals.
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PostAuthor: piskrt » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:27 pm

Piling wrote:Most of Armenians living in Turkey during the war were faithful to their regime and joined Ottoman army. They had been disarmed by the regime, just in the aim to be massacred.



Armenians, Greeks, Arabs atc. never served in the military. In fact, when Ottomans tried to recruit them for the army they refused that and upon European pressure Ottomans had to admit that Armenians woul not serve in the army in exchange for a bitter noney they would pay.

The first massacres of Turks and Kurds by Western Armenians were after the genocide, as reprisals


That is self conflicting. How would a people can kill for reprisals if the Genocide took place? Could Jews kill Germans after the Holocauts?

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PostAuthor: Piling » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:47 pm

Armenians, Greeks, Arabs atc. never served in the military.


During the "classical" Ottoman empire, that was right, but with the governement of Young Turks, there were no discriminations between citizens, and Christians as Jews should serve... They were not happy of that sometimes, for examples Iraqi Jews in Baghdad did not appreciate taht, they ysed to pay for not going to militzry service. But Armenians were incorporated in army during the 1 war and did not revolt before the genocide.

How would a people can kill for reprisals if the Genocide took place? Could Jews kill Germans after the Holocauts?


Those who could fled in "Russian" Armenia came back as militias escorting russian army. In the regions they occupied, they took revenge against Kurds and Turks, and muslims in general. But the number of muslim victims was nothing comparing to the quite total destruction of Armenian and Assyrian population in Eastern Anatolia.
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PostAuthor: piskrt » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:55 pm

During the "classical" Ottoman empire, that was right, but with the governement of Young Turks, there were no discriminations between citizens, and Christians as Jews should serve... They were not happy of that sometimes, for examples Iraqi Jews in Baghdad did not appreciate taht, they ysed to pay for not going to militzry service. But Armenians were incorporated in army during the 1 war and did not revolt before the genocide.


Can you give me a proof about that? As far as I know, in WW1 600 000 German Jews died while fighting for their country. Can you give me such a statistic on Armenians?

Those who could fled in "Russian" Armenia came back as militias escorting russian army. In the regions they occupied, they took revenge against Kurds and Turks, and muslims in general. But the number of muslim victims was nothing comparing to the quite total destruction of Armenian and Assyrian population in Eastern Anatolia.


As far as I know, about 3 million people died in the strife. I think that makes a bigh proportion when you consider that the whole population was about 10 million people!

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PostAuthor: Piling » Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:29 pm

From 2nd to 14th August 1914, the Dashnak hold its 8th Congress in Erzurum. The Dashnak was critic toward the nationalism extremism of the Ittihad but wanted to help the Turkish government to avoid the war. At this time, Armenians were conscious that their situation of a divided nation between 2 borders will put them in a difficult dilemna : being considered as traitors or fight against their own compatriots linving in Russiam empire.

Young Turks wanted to organize an insurrection of Armnians, Georgians and Tatars within Tussian Empire to help the success of their army. They asked to the Dashnak to organize revolts in Russian Armenia. They offered in exhange to give them a authonomous territory (under Turkish control) after the war, including districts of Erivan, Kars, Elizabetpol and some sanjaks like Van Bitlis, Erzurum.

Dashnka and these leaders refused and affirmed their position : they support a policy of neutrality for Turkey in the war. If Young Turks involved the country in the conflict, then they would be faithful , defend Turkey with loyalty. (They have fought already during the Balkanic war).

But Young Turks were not satisfied and threatened.

On October 23th 1914, the Dashnak of Istanbul sent a general statement to Armenian province asking to the population to serve the country and defend it if war happen, and engage themselves in army. The Armenian Patriarch did the same thing.

When Tyrkey entered in war, Armenian churches celebrated religious offices to wish the victory of Turkey.

But Talaat Pasha wanted an Islamic country. In November 11th 1914, he made a statement telling that the war will allow to liberate the Muslim world from non-muslims, and in November 23th Islamic authorities stated it was a Jihad, and called to massacre Christians everywhere (but non Turkish muslims did not obeyed, Arabs hated Ottomans).

The Dashnak stated loyal to Ottoman until April 1915. When Turksih troops arrived in Armenia, they looted, stole, and killed a bit the population as if they occupied the country. Then Armenians' feeling began to change.

In January 1915, the Turkish government ordered that all Armenians soldiers and officers should let their arms. And then, they could plannify the massacres.

Why a such decision ? Talaat Pasha's idelogy was nationalist and religous : A Turkish muslim state was probably his aim. In general, historians considered that in February 1915, the decision of genocide had been taken.

It is difficult to know the exact number of victims because of the lack of real census. But all serious historians thoukght that the number of Armenian victims could be account as several hundred thousands of vicitms, as the number of muslim victims from Armenians could not be more than several thousands of victims.
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PostAuthor: piskrt » Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:53 pm

From which site is this copy/paste from? I wnat to take a look at the original form!

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PostAuthor: Piling » Fri Feb 17, 2006 6:01 pm

It is not a site lol. You know, there are a lot of books concerning that history, not only websites ! If you read French, you can read Yves Ternon's books, then, which wrote a lot about Armenian genocide, but there are many other historians which wrote in English about Armenian, Dashnak, etc, , if you want a bibliography, I could make a list there but not this evening I have a train to catch soon sorry.
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PostAuthor: piskrt » Fri Feb 17, 2006 6:26 pm

I can not read French. The reason why I asked is the tone in the site sounds me more like a text from an internet site rather than a book.

However, I do not think a genocide took place. I do not believe that, Ottomans at that time would be able to do such an organized act. After all, they were a disintegrated, corrupt regime who lost territory even in Balkan Wars to tiny states. Armenian Genocide seems more like a political trick to grab territory to me.

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PostAuthor: Piling » Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:46 pm

Well for the "tune" I did not copy word for word the chapter of the book :) I just resume shortly long passages and chronology, but if you read any kind of sources (not Turkish ok) about the Congress of Dashnak you would have the same facts, this Congress was not secret and correspondance and official statements of this period could be easily verified.

Concerning the argument that Ottomans were not organized to make a genocide, well consider the last genocide in Rwanda. Tutsis were not very organized people, considerably less than Young Turks at least, and a genocide could be made only with machettes unfortunably :(
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PostAuthor: zurderer » Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:54 pm

what happened is happened, It is not much important what is wish of Talat.

This is a political conflict. So we should refuse genocide, Infact It is stupid to accept this. Armenians call us barbarian, murderer animal ext ext, and they wait us one of most ethic act world ever saw.

germans accepted genocide under the threat of gun, we have no such problems. If anyone care much for their genocide, they can began to admit their own genocide.

Piling you have a hard job at france. :wink:

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PostAuthor: Vladimir » Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:57 pm

Why you think European countries recognised it. You don't know anything about Armenian genocide.. apparantly.

Just go read this website: http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/

I think you like it.
The suppression of ethnic cultures and minority religious groups in attempting to forge a modern nation were not unique to Turkey but occurred in very similar ways in its European neighbours - Bruinessen.

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