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How old is Yezidism

About history of Kurdistan and middle east and the world.

PostAuthor: Tirigan » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:26 pm

Piling wrote:I went to Lalish and I went to Sheikh Adi' tomb also. And I know what is yezidism, and Yezidi temples are different than Zoroastrist temples. The real Zoroastrians are Parsis in India. I know Yezidi doctrine. There is not Zoroastrism.

And if you think that yeizidism exists before Zoroastrianism you have serious lacks in history. Zoroastrism is not even the first Iranian religion. Ancient Iranian, before the 1st M. BC worshipped Mithra, like Indians. I have never heard of Mithra in Yezidism. Yezidism seems also more influenced by Manicheism than by Zoroastrism and Mani lived in the IIIrd century.

Lalish is not about tomb of Sheikh Adi. He is just buried there as a saint. Lailis and our fire temple there is older than any Zoroastrian temple in the world!
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PostAuthor: Tirigan » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:38 pm

Piling wrote:I went to Lalish and I went to Sheikh Adi' tomb also. And I know what is yezidism, and Yezidi temples are different than Zoroastrist temples. The real Zoroastrians are Parsis in India. I know Yezidi doctrine. There is not Zoroastrism.

I’m practising Yezidi doctrine. And now I’m 100% sure that you don’t know anything about Zoroastrianism either.

Before Persians became Muslim they were Parsis. Parsis are original people from Iran who fled to India just 1000 years ago. But they came from Iran. Parsis are Persians who remained Zoroastrians.

Parsis are descended from Persian Zoroastrians who emigrated to the Indian subcontinent over 1000 years ago to escape religious persecution after the Islamic conquest(Jhabvalla, 1973)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsi

This is your another mistake that proves your lack of knowledge about my religion.
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PostAuthor: Piling » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:51 pm

Never contested that Parsi are not Zoroastrians. They are the real Zoroastrians as I told you. But not Yezidis.

Did you read Avesta ? If not compare with your own hymns and beliefs. let's compare Zoroastrian practices with Yezidism, also.

As you are a "nationalist" Yezidis (and more nationalist than religious in fact), you are not objective. Just have a religious argument : "I know I'm right because my Sheikh told me." Yeap. Some Christians thought too that Adam and Eve and snake's tale is real, and Darwin theory about evolution is false because their priest told them. But it is not a scientific point of view. Just a credulous one.

Lalish more ancient than others Zoroastrian temples ? well, why not. But prove it : were there excavations ? C14 results ? Comparisons with artefacts found on Lalish and in other places of Mesopotamia ? Archeological survey ?
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PostAuthor: Tirigan » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:56 pm

I'm not a Zoroastrian. I’m Yezidi. And Yezidism influenced Zoroastrianism.

Just make a test of the stones there. The bakery, our symbols, our snake etc.

You can test it with special analyse machines that it’s older than any Zoroastrian temple in the world. It’s our concrete proof not a theory, but the whole complex of buildings. Nobody can deny the whole complex of buildings. You must be crazy and blind if you don’t see that our buildings are older than Zoroastrian building.

Why are you denying this scientific article?

"Before Zoroaster became the prophet of a new religion, he was either a Yezidi or belonged to Yezidism."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _n15954362
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PostAuthor: Piling » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:02 pm

According to Kurdish scholar Taufiq Wahbi, their main deity, which symbolized the good and the wholesome, was Baba Asman. He was the counterpart of the Indian god, Diyaus Pitar.


How could he know ? Are there written sources of first Iranians ? No. The only written sources we have concerning Iranian religion is Avesta, which is closed to Rig-Veda of Indian. No mention of a "Baba Asman". I wonder where Wahby has fished the name, then. Diyaus Pitar has given the name "Zeus" for greek, or "Deus" in latin, etc. Avesta gives the name of the 7 divinities, but never mentionned a "Baba Asman". And there is no equivalence in Rig-Veda which is the most ancient religious text of an Indo-Aryan population.


But I believe that while some Kurds in the east accepted Zoroastrianism, the majority did not. They remained faithful to
their own ancient religion.


Ok, believe. But what are the proof ?



According to Zoroastrian legend, god would stop the flow of water through cities, leaving residents with no alternative but to sacrifice selected maidens. Then god would restore the water flow.


It is more a Mesopotamien belief than an Iranian one, for it was a symbol of irrigation, and fisrt Iranian were not peasants but nomadic shpeherds, they did not care of water and agriculture.

By the way, for the moment the author just say that Kurds and Yezidis are not Zoroastrians (without proving it though). I agree also.



According to Wahbi, during the 4th and 5th centuries AD the majority of Kurds east of the Zagros, Cizir, Botan, Kirkuk, and those in the mountains of southeast Kurdistan were not Zoroastrians.


Sources ??? and it is funny and unscientific to call these cities with their modern names, as if you say Mosul for Niniveh... :roll:

We see that the people of the Medes' Empire, whom we regard as the ancestors of the Kurds, were not Zoroastrians.


First : there is no proof that medes are Kurds' ancestors. And as Medes did not write, we have not a lot of informations about their religion.



The religion of the Medes was supplanted by three religions emanating from it, which remain to this day: Yezidism, Yarsanism and Alewism.


LOL. Comic stuff. Alevis did not exist before 16th century. It was a personnal creation of Shah Ismaïl. Before that, Qizil Bash were shiites, and originally a sunni sufi order.

Yarsenism (ahl e Haqq) could not be appeared before Islam, with its cult of Angel figures calling : Sultan Sohak, Djibraïl, Benyamin, Israfil, Azrail, and Fatma...

And about yezidism it is the same : they have ancient Iranian beliefs, but a great number of Arab terms. Malek Taus is the most important figure. Strange that this main figure has an Arab name, isn't it ?

Among the Yazdani sects of our day, Alewis and Yarsanis, beliefs are founded on the worship of seven angels.


Like in any Iranian cults, nothing original, even Zoroastrism was like that.

"Religion is the religion of the red Yezidi". When a Yezidi boy is circumcised, he is required to say, "I am a lamb of the red Yezidi".


Interesting but not specific to yezidism. Avesta had it too, and the great Shihab al Dîn Yahyâ Sohrawardî praised too the "Red Archangel". He was not yezidi but muslim, though.

There is an interesting belief about Prophet Zoroaster. Sheikh Dewresh Kelesh would say that Zoroaster was a Yezidi who left us. When he returned we did not accept his religion. It is evident from Iranian history that Zoroaster came from the people who lived around Lake Ourmiya. He remained on Mt. Ararat for two years and then returned to his people as a prophet preaching a new religion. He spent ten years recruiting converts among the people around Ourmiya, but his efforts drew only one person to his beliefs. Finally, he went to the Persians, among whom he found fertile ground for his teachings. This lends credibility to the claim that the sayings of Sheikh Dewresh are not baseless.


Fantasist stuff, again. We know quite nothing about Zoroaster. Only few mention in Avesta, no one knows where he borned, and where he went and died.

Moreover, contrary to the writings of some scholars, Yezidism did not emanate from Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism originated from Yezidism. Before Zoroaster became the prophet of a new religion, he was either a Yezidi or belonged to Yezidism.


yeah very interesting conclusion : just that Yezidis are not Zoroastrians. Thanx, we already know.

But telling that Zoroastrism derived from Yezidism is a pure invention. Based on nothing. We just know that Zoroastrism was a reform of an ancient Iranian cult, probably near to Indian Vedism if we consider the common points and gods and names between Avesta and Rig-Veda. If we compare Rig-Veda and Yezidism, we have not a great semblance.

Then, this paper is NOT a scientific paper. No quotations of original texts, no proofs, and a lot of mistakes, and pure dreamy affirmation. Have you nothing better than this to show us ?
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PostAuthor: Tirigan » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:59 pm

Piling wrote:
According to Zoroastrian legend, god would stop the flow of water through cities, leaving residents with no alternative but to sacrifice selected maidens. Then god would restore the water flow.

It is more a Mesopotamien belief than an Iranian one, for it was a symbol of irrigation, and fisrt Iranian were not peasants but nomadic shpeherds, they did not care of water and agriculture.

By the way, for the moment the author just say that Kurds and Yezidis are not Zoroastrians (without proving it though). I agree also.

At that time In Kuridtans lived Hurrians and then came Iranian people. Hurrians were not nomadic.

Piling wrote:
We see that the people of the Medes' Empire, whom we regard as the ancestors of the Kurds, were not Zoroastrians.

First : there is no proof that medes are Kurds' ancestors. And as Medes did not write, we have not a lot of informations about their religion.

I'm Kurmnaji. Kur= Son Manji= of Medes. Kurmaji = Son (child) of Medes. And it's true we're not 100% Medes. we're just children of Medes and Hurrians.

Piling wrote:And about yezidism it is the same : they have ancient Iranian beliefs, but a great number of Arab terms. Malek Taus is the most important figure. Strange that this main figure has an Arab name, isn't it ?

Who is Malek Taus? he is an upper angel. How do you know how my ancestors called Uper Angel in the past?

Piling wrote:Like in any Iranian cults, nothing original, even Zoroastrism was like that.

ofcourse Zoroastrianmism copied it form us.

Piling wrote:
"Religion is the religion of the red Yezidi". When a Yezidi boy is circumcised, he is required to say, "I am a lamb of the red Yezidi".


Interesting but not specific to yezidism. Avesta had it too, and the great Shihab al Dîn Yahyâ Sohrawardî praised too the "Red Archangel". He was not yezidi but muslim, though.

They have got it from us.

Piling wrote:Fantasist stuff, again. We know quite nothing about Zoroaster. Only few mention in Avesta, no one knows where he borned, and where he went and died.

You want to be it fantasy, that's different.

Piling wrote:
Moreover, contrary to the writings of some scholars, Yezidism did not emanate from Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism originated from Yezidism. Before Zoroaster became the prophet of a new religion, he was either a Yezidi or belonged to Yezidism.

Yeah very interesting conclusion : just that Yezidis are not Zoroastrians. Thanx, we already know.

Exactly. we're forefathern of Zoroastrians. :lol:
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PostAuthor: Tirigan » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:03 pm

Piling wrote:But telling that Zoroastrism derived from Yezidism is a pure invention. Based on nothing. We just know that Zoroastrism was a reform of an ancient Iranian cult, probably near to Indian Vedism if we consider the common points and gods and names between Avesta and Rig-Veda. If we compare Rig-Veda and Yezidism, we have not a great semblance.

Then, this paper is NOT a scientific paper. No quotations of original texts, no proofs, and a lot of mistakes, and pure dreamy affirmation. Have you nothing better than this to show us ?


Wtf. Are you crazy? Show some respect to my religion. When my ancestors believed in 1 GOD your ancestors believed in I don’t know what. And now you’re dictating me that I’m wrong and you’re right?

I’ve to prove nothing. You must proof what you’re claiming.

Once you even wrote that Yezidism is younger than Islam, then you wrote that Yezidism was founded by Semites. Stop spreading lies and accept the facts. You’re just jealous that your ancestors never were like my ancestors.

How many times I must to say that our Lalish building complex is older than Zoroastrianism.

How many times I must to say that our Lalish building complex is older than Zoroastrianism.

How many times I must to say that our Lalish building complex is older than Zoroastrianism.

How many times I must to say that our Lalish building complex is older than Zoroastrianism.

How many times I must to say that our Lalish building complex is older than Zoroastrianism.

How many times I must to say that our Lalish building complex is older than Zoroastrianism.

How many times I must to say that our Lalish building complex is older than Zoroastrianism.

How many times I must to say that our Lalish building complex is older than Zoroastrianism.
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PostAuthor: Piling » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:23 pm

You can repeat it 100 times. Only serious archeological excavations could show it or not.

Stop spreading lies and accept the facts. You’re just jealous that your ancestors never were like my ancestors.
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PostAuthor: Tirigan » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:41 pm

Piling wrote:You can repeat it 100 times. Only serious archeological excavations could show it or not.


"It is situated 14 km off Ain Sifne
township, Shekhaan District centre.
According to the Yezidi Mythology,
Lalish is the most ancient place on
the globe ever discovered
. However,
Lalish appellation means the Divine
Highness. The temple contains
symbols that date back to ancient
eras; over ages it had sustained
military campaigns, aiming at
destroying it and annihilating the
Yezidis. The temple has been
renovated and reconstructed with its
parts & sections. Under the
Regional Government, the Yezidis
have been practicing their rituals
amidst a brotherly ambience. The
Temple attracts Yezidis from all over
the world to perform their cults twice
a year.
"

"The cave is located in an old habitat, which goes back to the Furthian Era. What proves this belief is the broken potteries existent on its roof."


"On the right side of the cave aperture there are symbols denoting to the five gods excavated on the rock, possibly belonging to the Gods of Sun, Moon, Ishtar, Mitrwa and Zrwan."


http://72.14.221.104/search?q=cache:G9L ... clnk&cd=45

Written by regional administration of Duhok
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PostAuthor: Tirigan » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:50 pm

Image

"LALISH, IRAQ – In Northern Iraq there is a place called Lalish where the Yezidis say the universe was born.


Yezidis are ancient fire-worshippers. They heavily influenced Zoroastrianism, and in turn have been heavily influenced by Sufi Islam.
"

http://windsofchange.net/archives/008159.php
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PostAuthor: Tirigan » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:56 pm

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PostAuthor: Piling » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:01 pm

The only interesting and valuable link is Pir Mamou Othman's one, all other are nuts (even administration of Duhok yeah :lol: ) then I will talk only about him which relieve myself about the cleverness of Yezidis theologians. The point I object is when he says that Yezidism existed before Sheikh Adi.


The fact, that Sheik-Adi Ibin Mustafa (ca. 1162 after
Christ) introduced a radical change in the Yezidi-religion hang
like a dark curtain in front of theYezidi past. It is unanimously
held, that this religion existed before Sheik-Adi, but under
other names as well as definitely with other Customs and
Traditions.


I think it would be more relevant to write that current yezidism is issued from a fusion between ancient Iranian religions and Sheikh Adi's confrery. For if ancient cult is so different (other names, other customs and other traditions) than the new one, how could we call both the same one religion ? It is like Christians say they are Jews because they are issued from Ancient Testament in addition to the new one.

All the same the paper is a good thinking and the man is probably a good religious thinker.

A comparison with Zorasthrianismus shows, that it stronlgy
influenced Yezidism.


And he said exactly the contrary than you, did you notice ? :lol:
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PostAuthor: Tirigan » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:35 pm

Piling wrote:The only interesting and valuable link is Pir Mamou Othman's one, all other are nuts (even administration of Duhok yeah :lol: ) then I will talk only about him which relieve myself about the cleverness of Yezidis theologians. The point I object is when he says that Yezidism existed before Sheikh Adi.

Hello, maybe because we have got the same roots as religion of Lalish before ADI? :? :lol:
Lalish was build before ADI. It's a fact!

Is ancient Christianity and ancient Christian sects same to the modern one? Thank you! Some ancient sects believed in mother of Jesus other believed in Maria Magdalena, other believed in some disciples etc. Why are we calling al that religions Christian because they have got same roots.

You’re what I call a helpless case. You just don’t want to believe it, that such a great people ever existed and still exist in Kurdish race and live on in our blood.

And I don’t care what you think, you’re not an academic or specialist in ancient religions and thanks GOD by writing our Kurdish history our government doesn’t use and listen to people like you.

We have got our own people who write our history, so our enemies can say what they want, nothing will change.
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PostAuthor: Piling » Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:17 am

Hello, maybe because we have got the same roots as religion of Lalish before ADI?
Lalish was build before ADI. It's a fact!



It is useless to debate with you for your change your argment all the time. Firstly you said Yezidism is one the oldest religion in the world and It has influenced Zoroastrism. Then you just state triumphally that Lalish exist before Sheikh Adi ? so what ? who did say the contrary ? Perhaps, why not ? You say NOW that Yezidism has ONLY common roots with ancient Iranian cults ? Who say the contrary except you 3 or 4 posts above when you affirm that Yezidism was more ancient than mazdeism ?


Is ancient Christianity and ancient Christian sects same to the modern one? Thank you! Some ancient sects believed in mother of Jesus other believed in Maria Magdalena, other believed in some disciples etc. Why are we calling al that religions Christian because they have got same roots.


in Maria Magdalena ? LOL ! did you,make your religion education my reading stuff like Da Vinci code ? :lol: But I will answer : "Is ancient Christianity and ancient Christian sects same to the modern one?"

There is not "ancient Christianity". There were firstly Jewish sects, then Judeo-Christians sects, for which Jesus was a Prophet, and then Christians considering Jesus like God (With Paul of Tarsus). There were then a lot of Christian sects, but technically the passage is simple from Judaism to Christianism : Is Jesus an prophet or God ? But even if they have the same roots, Christianism is mire recent than Judaism and it is NOT the same religion.

As Yezidism is younger than Zoroastrism, and though it has common roots, it is nOT the same religion.[/code]
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PostAuthor: Tirigan » Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:01 pm

Read the first phrase and you will understand. It’s written by Human Rights. Are you saying that Human Rights is lying?


is well known that Yezidism, or Zoroastrianism, being one of the oldest religions of the Middle East, has greatly influenced the history of mankind. The truth, always evident from old and new books alike, is that this religious culture was alive and dominant there as early as in the years between 1000 and 600 BC. By analysing the elements of Zoroastrianism, which could be described as experiencing Renaissance, we come to the conclusion that it represents a deep interrelation between mankind and nature. The spiritual and physical conditions of Zoroaster himself, as well as his role as the leader of the religious movement, demonstrate that he was a philosopher rather than a prophet. Doubtless, the Renaissance of Zoroastrianism, as it has often been the case with other cultural movements, has largely been based on social structure and apparent shortcomings, characteristic of the regional reality. It might propose answers to the questions of interrelationships between Man and Eternity, not only for the Kurdish people, who once were a powerful factor in the Middle East, but also to other peoples who accepted Zoroastrianism as a basic religious system.


http://www.humanrights.de/doc_de/archiv ... yezid.html


Of course Yezidism is not like Zoroastrianism. Yezidism influenced Zoroastrianism.

And stop saying Iranian religion, because Yezidism was maybe religion of ancient Hurrians. Nobody is sure that Yezidism has Iranian roots. Maybe it has got Hurrian roots. And Zoroastrianism is a Iranian religion influenced by Hurrians. Iranians/Medes came after Hurrians.
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