Last news : Kurds are not Aryan !

[Sirwan]

Excellent...

Xoş hatî birayê Sîrwan/Sirwan (which one is it?)

Thank you for this very interesting piece of information...

Please be sure to check out the "Introduce Yourself" section - as I've opened a welcome thread for you there!

Spas brayê min, (they are the same, but 'î' does not exist in english!)

Sure I will look at it!

[Sirwan]

@Sirwan

It is not "Zozana", he says Zazana. He doesn't say high lands.
He says, "there (is) a town Zazana by name along the Euphrates…”
Get your facts straight, then create your own theories.
In fact, you are good at creating theories. Go work with Turkish
"scholars," you'll can use your imagination with hell a lot.

The town he mentioned is transliterated as Zozana, Zuzana, Zazana and Zozan which is said to be related to the earlier Gozan mentioned in the semitic sources, which again meant highland.
By the way you agreed that Zozan is NOT name of a people but simply a place name which we know for sure that it lied in the highlands of upper mesopotamia!

According to Turkish scholars, there was no Kurdish language ever
no separate Kurd ethnicity. You are just like them, dump nationalists.

Turkish scholars are being refuted by numerous historical sources regarding existence of a separate Kurdish ethnic identity, but could you please provide one pre-modern source which referes to existence of a Zazaistan?! I think it was coined not before 1980s.

[Sirwan]

@Sirwan

It is not "Zozana", he says Zazana. He doesn't say high lands.
He says, "there (is) a town Zazana by name along the Euphrates…”
Get your facts straight, then create your own theories.

In fact, you are good at creating theories. Go work with Turkish
"scholars," you'll can use your imagination with hell a lot.

ccording to Turkish scholars, there was no Kurdish language ever
no separate Kurd ethnicity. You are just like them, dump nationalists.

The difference between him and you, you know what that is?

He doesn't deny your existence. Neither do I... Yet you continue braying and moaning like we were some Turks - comparing us to ülkücü people... This just goes to show that you have no sense of proportion, nor do you comprehend the larger frame at work here...

Diri, In my oponion, every individual which does not wish to be associated with a certain ethnic identity simply does not belong to that ethnic group. Ethnic identity cannot be imposed or suddenly coined to serve political agendas.

[Diri]

@Sirwan

It is not "Zozana", he says Zazana. He doesn't say high lands.
He says, "there (is) a town Zazana by name along the Euphrates…”
Get your facts straight, then create your own theories.

In fact, you are good at creating theories. Go work with Turkish
"scholars," you'll can use your imagination with hell a lot.

ccording to Turkish scholars, there was no Kurdish language ever
no separate Kurd ethnicity. You are just like them, dump nationalists.

The difference between him and you, you know what that is?

He doesn't deny your existence. Neither do I... Yet you continue braying and moaning like we were some Turks - comparing us to ülkücü people... This just goes to show that you have no sense of proportion, nor do you comprehend the larger frame at work here...

Diri, In my oponion, every individual which does not wish to be associated with a certain ethnic identity simply does not belong to that ethnic group. Ethnic identity cannot be imposed or suddenly coined to serve political agendas.

Yes, and that's what I'm telling Xosere - but he doesn't seem to get the point: everybody is what they wish to be. No one can force a Zaza to be a Kurd - unless he says he is Kurdish himself... And from experience, most Zaza say they are Kurdish.

Let's just look at some Kurdish artists whom are Zaza:

Beser Şahîn
Mîkael Aslan
Aynur Doxan
Kahraman family
Nilûfer Akbal
Sozdar

And many more... Yet none of them say "I'm not Kurdish" - and that alone should be a sign to pin-point us in the right direction... As opposed to how many Zaza artists there are who do not call themselves "Kurds"... A nation and people is the sum of it's cultural and historical production...

For the Zazaistanists, I'm sorry to say, that is bad news, considering that their nationalist aspirations developed too late to spread within the people they demand to be representing...

In some cases, this is also true about Kurds. Because some areas of Bakûr, Rojhelat, Rojava and Başûr have forever been lost to Arabs, Turks and Persians - whose political identity was much more developed and supported than the Kurdish one in many places..

[Diri]

Excellent...

Xoş hatî birayê Sîrwan/Sirwan (which one is it?)

Thank you for this very interesting piece of information...

Please be sure to check out the "Introduce Yourself" section - as I've opened a welcome thread for you there!

Spas brayê min, (they are the same, but 'î' does not exist in english!)

Sure I will look at it!

Well I just meant to ask how you would like your name spelled - since the difference of i and î in Kurdish would result in very different meanings:

Sîrwan = Magician (person) = one who does magic
Sirwan = Secretive (person) = one who is secretive

Hence my question

[Sirwan]

Excellent...

Xoş hatî birayê Sîrwan/Sirwan (which one is it?)

Thank you for this very interesting piece of information...

Please be sure to check out the "Introduce Yourself" section - as I've opened a welcome thread for you there!

Spas brayê min, (they are the same, but 'î' does not exist in english!)

Sure I will look at it!

Well I just meant to ask how you would like your name spelled - since the difference of i and î in Kurdish would result in very different meanings:

Sîrwan = Magician (person) = one who does magic
Sirwan = Secretive (person) = one who is secretive

Hence my question

So my name with a small misspelling gets to different but interesting meanings! It actually is pronouced as the first one and is name of a welknown river in Kurdistan, and is a very very popular male-name;
But I also like the second meaning as well!!

[Diri]

Yes, I know Sîrwan from TV... But I've yet to meet somebody called "Sirwan"... Less normal, I guess...

Yes bira - the "i" is the sound in "bira" ("brother") - which in English would be written "Bra".

In fact, that sound exists in English as well: "Bird" - contains the same i as in "bira"...

Other examples of Kurdish words with the letter i:

Kurdish - English - English spelling of Kurdish word
Dil ---- Heart ---- Dl
Sil ---- Upset ----- Sl
Min ---- I/Me ---- Mn

[xosere]

Zozana, Zuzana, Zazana and Zozan

@Sirwan

A thousand year ago, while Turks were walking on mountains:
Turk... tirk... kirt... kurt... Kurd

You sound very similar to them. Whichever source you want to look at,
it is always "Zazana." Here is one of them:
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ancientp ... istun.html

You guys get disturbed by the word "Zaza," like stupid your Turkish nationalist
brothers. Ah! what can you expect from nationalist?

When the word "Kurdistan" appeared? 200 years ago? Kurdish nationalism
is just 80 years old. What is the difference? Even if you assume that Zazaish
is not a language and Zazas are not a nation, this does not make us Turk
or Kurd. Our language is close to many other different languages. Kurds or
Turks doesn't even come close. So whether Zazas are separate ethnic group
or Zazaish is a dialect or Zaza nationalism is new have nothing to do with
your nationalist claims.

[raman82]

Turks are altaic speakers , Kurds are Iranic speakers ,Zaza is an Iranic language so I dont see how Turkish has any affinity what so ever??

[xosere]

Yes, and that's what I'm telling Xosere - but he doesn't seem to get the point: everybody is what they wish to be. No one can force a Zaza to be a Kurd - unless he says he is Kurdish himself... And from experience, most Zaza say they are Kurdish.

Let's just look at some Kurdish artists whom are Zaza:

Beser Şahîn
Mîkael Aslan
Aynur Doxan
Kahraman family
Nilûfer Akbal
Sozdar

And many more... Yet none of them say "I'm not Kurdish" - and that alone should be a sign to pin-point us in the right direction... As opposed to how many Zaza artists there are who do not call themselves "Kurds"... A nation and people is the sum of it's cultural and historical production...

For the Zazaistanists, I'm sorry to say, that is bad news, considering that their nationalist aspirations developed too late to spread within the people they demand to be representing...

In some cases, this is also true about Kurds. Because some areas of Bakûr, Rojhelat, Rojava and Başûr have forever been lost to Arabs, Turks and Persians - whose political identity was much more developed and supported than the Kurdish one in many places..

Yes, I understand what you say, but you don't really believe what you say. If you would,
there would be a handful Kurds in Turkey and no basis for Kurdistan. If you would, you
would call them just Kurds not "Zaza Kurds" if few of them really exist.

I never heard one of those singers call himslef/herself a Kurd. You just make it up. Here is
Metin Kemal Kahraman brother website. They have a section for Zazaki, not for Kurdish:
http://www.mkkahraman.org/
Singers could sing Kurdish songs, they could also sing Turkish songs. It is
just for selling more records. It doesn't make them Kurdish or Turkish. If they call
themselves Turkish or Kurdish, I wouldn't care either. There are 3 million strong Zazas.

I'm sorry for you Diri. I don't have any nationalist aspiration, but you do. So, don't be
sorry for me. However I have one aspiration, I won't let you and Turks to use our name
and our people for your stupid nationalist games. That is my whole mission.

[Diri]

Nobody said there isn't a "Zaza Nation" - In fact we've said nothing like that...

You on the other hand think that either there is a Zaza nation and no Zaza Kurds, OR there are no Zaza at all... Which is ridiculous...

Zazakî speakers swing three ways:

Some call themselves KURDS
Some call themselves ALEVI (because of their religious identity being stronger than their ethnic one)
Some call themselves ZAZAS


END of story... Now stop this fuzz... Nobody denied you the right to be a nation! What we're saying is: don't pretend that there are no Zaza Kurds...

No, I call Kurds "Kurds" when I speak of ALL Kurds. When I wish to speak of a specific group, I will use the terms "Zazakî Kurd", "Soranî Kurd", "Kurmancî Kurd", "Goranî Kurd", "Hewramî Kurd", "Lekî Kurd", "Feylî Kurd", "Êzidî Kurd", "Muslim Kurd", "Christian Kurd", "Jewish Kurd" etc. it's not an ethnic term - merely a way to speak of one specific group within the larger group called "Kurd"...

Which is nothing different from my friends and I (in Norway) speak of "Øst-Norsk", "Vest-Norsk", "Nord-Norsk" or "Sør-Norsk"... HELL we even use more regional terms like "Trøndere", "Bergensere", "Østlendinger", "Sørlendinger" etc...

You are, as I've said before: not connecting the dots. You take things out of proportion and measurements - you forget that this is not special to Kurdistan - but that the same can be said about even NORWAY!!! It's nothing like you think it is. And I believe firmly in my words when I say: Nobody is using anybody...

Oh yeah - Nîlûfer Akbal goes all the way to South Kurdistan and presents her new album full of Soranî and Kurmancî songs because she wants to sell more albums... Is she dumb? Doesn't she know that English is the world language number ONE...?

Oh wait - that's right, I forgot - she's not dumb - she actually says in her interview on Zagros TV that her nationalist awakening was a very traumatic experience in her childhood when she learned that her language was forbidden and her culture prohibited... So she said something like "My parents were the ones who kept our culture alive at home and told us of our identity as Kurds"...

So in your face, Xosere... I wish you'd just step down from your arrogant horse and come down to earth - because Nîlûfer Akbal, Beser Şahîn, Mîlkael Aslan and Aynûr Doxan are all KURDS and say so openly... So you can just pretend and go on as if they never said so...

[Sirwan]

Zozana, Zuzana, Zazana and Zozan

@Sirwan

A thousand year ago, while Turks were walking on mountains:
Turk... tirk... kirt... kurt... Kurd

had nothing to do with the topic just an ethnic slur.

You sound very similar to them. Whichever source you want to look at,
it is always "Zazana." Here is one of them:
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ancientp ... istun.html

You guys get disturbed by the word "Zaza," like stupid your Turkish nationalist
brothers. Ah! what can you expect from nationalist?

Well you can easily search google books for various other spelling of the term. For your information it has nothing to do with modern Zaza tribes of Kurdistan.

When the word "Kurdistan" appeared? 200 years ago? Kurdish nationalism
is just 80 years old. What is the difference? Even if you assume that Zazaish
is not a language and Zazas are not a nation, this does not make us Turk
or Kurd. Our language is close to many other different languages. Kurds or
Turks doesn't even come close. So whether Zazas are separate ethnic group
or Zazaish is a dialect or Zaza nationalism is new have nothing to do with
your nationalist claims.

The word Kurd'istan' appeard a millenium ago but other variations of the name in the lingua franca of the era existed probably up to three millennia BC.

Kurds are proud to possess scholars such as Ahmad khani who talked about unification of Kurds against occupiers before all other middle easterners could think in a similar way for their respective ethnicities.

There is no clear and definate border between syster languages, the only existing border between similar languages can be drowen by political agreement (let's even not to say as a gradual natural process). Norwegian and Swedish are very similar languages but because historically they did not consider eachother as one people they are regarded as different languages. Farsi and Gilaki and Lori are diffenrent languages/dialects but because for decades this people considered eachother to be one people, they are just regarded as one language (or dialects of Persian). In my opinion if there are Zazas who do not wish to be Kurdish, their language should be protected and their ethnic identity should be respected; Also if there are Zazas who consider themselves as Kurdish, their language which is Zazaki should be protected and their ethnic identity respected.

[xosere]

@ Diri

Then Nilifer Akbal had a wrong nationalist awakening. You dropped Kaharaman brothers from your list!
You don't present facts correct, and Aynur Dogan is Kurdish, a Kurmanci Kurdish. Be careful, your fake
list is getting smaller.

There are tons of Kurdish singers and actors call themselves Turkish, Yildiz Tilbe, Alisan, Ozcan Deniz...
This list goes long very long.

Yes I understand you, they are not Kurdish anymore. They are Turkish. But, Mr. Diri do you accept
the word "Kurdish Turks"? This is used by Turkish nationalist? If you really do, you should just close
down this site, and go home.

look Diri, in my hometown AK get 71% of the votes. Where is your party? Where is your "Zaza Kurds"?
Look, while most Kurds consider themselves Turkish, do you think that Zazas would consider themselves
Kurdish? Except some stupid ones.

[Diri]

@ Diri

Then Nilifer Akbal had a wrong nationalist awakening. You dropped Kaharaman brothers from your list!
You don't present facts correct, and Aynur Dogan is Kurdish, a Kurmanci Kurdish. Be careful, your fake
list is getting smaller.

There are tons of Kurdish singers and actors call themselves Turkish, Yildiz Tilbe, Alisan, Ozcan Deniz...
This list goes long very long.

Yes I understand you, they are not Kurdish anymore. They are Turkish. But, Mr. Diri do you accept
the word "Kurdish Turks"? This is used by Turkish nationalist? If you really do, you should just close
down this site, and go home.

look Diri, in my hometown AK get 71% of the votes. Where is your party? Where is your "Zaza Kurds"?
Look, while most Kurds consider themselves Turkish, do you think that Zazas would consider themselves
Kurdish? Except some stupid ones.

I did't "drop" them... I want to investigate what I am uncertain of - get it?

And no, you are wrong about Aynûr...

While Yildiz Tilbe's Yildiz Show was SHUT DOWN because she said "Ben kürd kizi kürdüm" out in public...

Alişan has started singing in Kurdish... Ibo as everybody knows is Kurdish... Ceylan is Kurdish... Ozcan Deniz is a lost case... Izzet Yildizhan is Kurdish... Heck - 90% of those singers know and would say "I am Kurdish" had it not been for the fact that then Turks wouldn't buy their albums...

But no Kurd is gonna not buy a Zazakî album just because somebody says "I am Zaza"... In fact, it wouldn't matter much at all - because Kurds listen to Turkish, Arabic and Persian music with no problem - so why would they have difficulties listening to Zazakî music...?

None... That's why Nîlûfer Akbal is such a big hit - because her songs are AWSOME! No matter which language she sings them in...

[nuray]

Diri, In my oponion, every individual which does not wish to be associated with a certain ethnic identity simply does not belong to that ethnic group. Ethnic identity cannot be imposed or suddenly coined to serve political agendas.

well said sîrwan.