Marriage & Divorce in the Kurdish way

[raii87]

Hey guys,

I'd like to know how marriages take place in Kurdistan: speaking of a Christian girl-Muslim boy marriage. Would you be kind enough to answer my questions below?
1. Is a marriage in the presence of an Imam mandatory? Or would going to Court for a civil marriage be enough?
2. Would anyone know the exact words said by an Imam during such a marriage? I know that he basically asks if the "buk" and groom agree to the marriage "agreement", and you're supposed to say "bale" but what are the exact words? Would anyone happen to know...?

And then I've got some questions about divorce:
1. Apparently it's enough for a man to say "talaq" 3 times to his wife to divorce her. Is it valid only in front of male witnesses? What happens with the paper for divorcing - the Court part?
2. How can a woman divorce a husband, if she's not Muslim?

Zor spas to those you spend a minute or two to share your knowledge on the above!

[ocmentos]

Hey guys,

I'd like to know how marriages take place in Kurdistan: speaking of a Christian girl-Muslim boy marriage. Would you be kind enough to answer my questions below?
1. Is a marriage in the presence of an Imam mandatory? Or would going to Court for a civil marriage be enough?
2. Would anyone know the exact words said by an Imam during such a marriage? I know that he basically asks if the "buk" and groom agree to the marriage "agreement", and you're supposed to say "bale" but what are the exact words? Would anyone happen to know...?

And then I've got some questions about divorce:
1. Apparently it's enough for a man to say "talaq" 3 times to his wife to divorce her. Is it valid only in front of male witnesses? What happens with the paper for divorcing - the Court part?
2. How can a woman divorce a husband, if she's not Muslim?

Zor spas to those you spend a minute or two to share your knowledge on the above!

what do you mean by Kurdistan.. do you mean the KRG? in the KRG marriage has nothing to do with religion.. a male and female can get married regardless of their religion, and get divorced by a signature as for culturally it really depends on what city you take.
1-most families would like it to be done under a mullah- If it is in a village there is not argument.. maybe in cities if the family is understanding enough and their child persistent enough they might agree although it is hard because of the larger family.
2- I don't think that is really a big problem, just say balle.. I don't really know I have never gotten married lols. but Kurds don't take religion so seriously, It won't be like an arab marriage.

1,2- like I said according to law there is no such thing... It is something cultural.. and that is totally fsha, you hear men say se ba se talaqim xwardwa and the next day they are back together
I think you are mistaken about the Kurdish government... what you think of is the law according to Shari'a.. the Shari'a law works in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, but the KRG works much like a secular one what city is the guy from if you don't mind me asking? if in Slemani you would not need to worry abou it at all, maybe for Erbil or Duhok a little

[talsor]

Hey guys,

I'd like to know how marriages take place in Kurdistan: speaking of a Christian girl-Muslim boy marriage. Would you be kind enough to answer my questions below?

1. Is a marriage in the presence of an Imam mandatory? Or would going to Court for a civil marriage be enough?

The civil court marriage licence take precedence over the Imam's one . The court does not even recognize the imam having such power and marriage MUST be done in the court first . Depending on the family's religious background they either do it in the mosque or not , but mostly I would say yes for cultural and religious reasons .

2. Would anyone know the exact words said by an Imam during such a marriage? I know that he basically asks if the "buk" and groom agree to the marriage "agreement", and you're supposed to say "bale" but what are the exact words? Would anyone happen to know...?

The imam will start with " by the name of God the merceful ..." and state some verses from Quran then he will ask to man if he accept the woman as his wife , then turn and ask the woman if she accept the woman as his wife . The marriage can also be conducted without the presence of the girl .

And then I've got some questions about divorce:
1. Apparently it's enough for a man to say "talaq" 3 times to his wife to divorce her. Is it valid only in front of male witnesses? What happens with the paper for divorcing - the Court part?
2. How can a woman divorce a husband, if she's not Muslim?

it is enough for a man to say "talaq" 3 times to his wife to divorce her and it is widly acceptable culturely concept .Such divorce is not legaly valid though unless the court approves it .The man or the woman at that point can apply for a formal divorce through the court .

The woman Can only divorce her husband through the court and she can not divorce him by saying
"talaq" 3 times .

[raii87]

what city is the guy from if you don't mind me asking? if in Slemani you would not need to worry abou it at all, maybe for Erbil or Duhok a little

So in Suleymani it's more so to say 'liberal' compared to Erbil? I put them on the same weight in my mind.... lol. I'm afraid I can guess you're reaction to your question's answer: he's from Kerkuk....

See, the thing is that he said an Imam wedding is a must for him, then follows the court procedure. In case of a marriage taking place there, we'd have to legalize it in my country too, which will be the easy part. I'm just not feeling (honestly) too comfortable with the idea of getting married in Kurdistan. Nothing personal of course. It's just that I won't say 'bale' just like this, without actually & literally knowing what the Imam is saying. Or the judge in the court - not that I don't trust my guy, but no one says 'yes' or signs a contract without reading it - right? Hope you get my point here....I also don't so to say "approve" of his choice of witnesses because they just don't breathe trust into me...And I can say that from meeting them personally a few times. I've been reading a lot about this whole marriage procedure, and I just want to be sure I am absolutely familiar with it (or as familiar as possible, being a foreigner) before we actually do it. In Kurdistan. Thanks for your reply, Ocmentos!

[ocmentos]

So in Suleymani it's more so to say 'liberal' compared to Erbil? I put them on the same weight in my mind.... lol. I'm afraid I can guess you're reaction to your question's answer: he's from Kerkuk....

See, the thing is that he said an Imam wedding is a must for him, then follows the court procedure. In case of a marriage taking place there, we'd have to legalize it in my country too, which will be the easy part. I'm just not feeling (honestly) too comfortable with the idea of getting married in Kurdistan. Nothing personal of course. It's just that I won't say 'bale' just like this, without actually & literally knowing what the Imam is saying. Or the judge in the court - not that I don't trust my guy, but no one says 'yes' or signs a contract without reading it - right? Hope you get my point here....I also don't so to say "approve" of his choice of witnesses because they just don't breathe trust into me...And I can say that from meeting them personally a few times. I've been reading a lot about this whole marriage procedure, and I just want to be sure I am absolutely familiar with it (or as familiar as possible, being a foreigner) before we actually do it. In Kurdistan. Thanks for your reply, Ocmentos!

hey well I don't want to sound out of my place here. but I think you should study more about Middle Eastern culture before you make a decision that will affect the rest of your life. the Quran very clearly allows men to hit their women and it very openly allows them to marry more than one wife. I think you should take the time to read the Quran especially places where it talks about marriage and Divorce and these stuff. You will never face any problems in court but if the one you are marrying is religious and very cultural, he won't worry about the law. I am not in any place to judge you or him, and I am not doing so. I hope you all happiness in life but just to make sure If a man has to make you go through the process of getting married under the Imam, in the future he will impose even more cultural requirements. There are many things in the lives of the middle east that westerners don't know about, believe me just take time to take a look everything up. Good luck to you and hope you happiness

[thearabchildren]

From what I've seen, ocmentos is a really rational person, so I would take heed of what he says. I guess really the question is this: If in the KRG there is civil marriage, why does your fiancé want a religious marriage? For family or for himself? Because if it's the former, I probably wouldn't worry as much, but if he sincerely believes that without a religious marriage he's not married, I would just advise you to consider if you want to be with someone that religious (I'm not picking on Islam here, I would give you similar advice if your fiancé was Jewish). It's not religion that I'm against, of course, but dogma. I treat religion like I treat belonging to a national group: It's a fine thing as long as it's voluntary and you respect the choices of others. If not, it can become really dangerous.

[Kulka]

you both are right. religious fanatism is very dangerous

[raii87]

thearabchildren & Kulka - thanks for your comments.
He is not fanatic, far from that. I'd even hardly call him religious-religious, you know. I had written a long reply before my browser crashed & I can't rewrite it all again . But this Imam wedding is not coz of his family, he wants it himself. Just the way I told him I insist on a church wedding, which I guess is impossible coz I heard Muslims are not allowed to marry in Christian churches (but I might be wrong of course). Anyhow, of course people talk when they see a foreign girl in the neighbour's house & I understand that, it didn't make his family feel too good about the rumours but a religious marriage has nothing to do with them. In fact, when I was in Kurdistan last, he asked if I would want to marry him & after we discussed it, he said we can pick any two male witnesses. Random folks. Of course, he has friends he'd prefer but the point being if I had said "yes, let's do it - pull 2 strangers off the street & call the first available Imam", he would've done it. I'm sure of it. I'm sure that his culture is a part of him, although it isn't entirely controlling his life, but I have observed many things that we, Westerns, believe Muslims to do but that he didn't do. Before I write about that though, how would you guys describe "religious"? I'm just curious to hear your definitions...

[thearabchildren]

What kind of Christian are you? Like, what sect?

As for "religious", I mean... my thing is that I don't believe in a lot of the traditional definitions of human civilisation. I believe in expansive conceptions of self as opposed to exclusive conceptions which strengthen "other"ness. So like, I dunno how my kids will view themselves, but I hope they view Jews and Muslims as equals, rather than thinking one is "wrong" or "right" or "better" or "worse", but just as different religio-cultural constellations with roots in holy books... I'm not really sure if I'm expressing this well or if this is the best place to express it, but my point is that when an inter-religious marriage happens, I'm a bit suspicious of people (Jewish or Muslim) who wish to turn their kids into "pure" Jews or Muslims, at the expense of their spouse (whether that spouse is Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Yezidi, Christian, etc.)

So I guess the sort of "religious" I'm worried about is if your potential husband will respect you and your wishes, and also, if he will try to raise his kids "purely" as Muslims. Although depending on what sect of Christianity you're from, maybe I won't mind so much Just kidding.

[raii87]

What kind of Christian are you? Like, what sect?

Although depending on what sect of Christianity you're from, maybe I won't mind so much Just kidding.

I didn't get the part about the sect but as long as it's a joke - I'll smile about it

I haven't heard him talk about different/other religions bad till now. And I haven't heard him praise Islam actually. When I asked you about the definition of "religious" according to you, I wanted to see if we share the same views...I'll say it like that: he eats pork, he drinks alcohol (not as in an alcoholic of course lol), he has been intimate with girls from his teenage years (growing up in Europe), hasn't prayed once since I know him. He actually drank once with a friend of his on a Friday, which if I remember right, was Mohamed's birthday (back in February) and had told me that we can't drink then because of Mohamed's birthday. He hasn't gone once to a mosque, or prayed at home (I've seen his friends do that when we visited, he never joined them). In fact, he actually finds the long & loud prayers annoying...I've seen him get "irritated" by them when they'd continue for 30mins or so. When we visited his relatives, he'd just say about things that 'that's how they live, they want to follow customs" or he'd just say that he doesn't like this they do, or that they do. Just speaking in general here, not giving particular examples coz I cannot remember. He doesn't like to be part of a crowd, even during family gatherings. Crowds+loudness get on his nerves. We were discussing this topic about kids & their religion and first he said that just like they get the last name from the father, the same refers to religion. But I insisted (hypothetically speaking if we have kids) that they choose their own religion. I have friends from a mixed marriage, their parents let them do that. And I told him that's what I want to do as well - let them choose, of course making them familiar with both religion's customs, etc...