Greetings

[thearabchildren]

I am an American with a Turkish wife whose father is a Kurd and whose mother is, shall we say, an extremely pro-Kurdish Turk. They are both bilingual and speak both to each other and their children, but because of the years of chauvanistic social and legal pressure against Kurds, my wife (who understands everything her parents say in Kurdish) is afraid to actually speak the language herself. I speak Turkish and have been studying Kurdish as best I can under the circumstances, but it's not easy. I wanted to find a forum in which to discuss the issues of the region with an emphasis on the Kurdish people, whose plight has (naturally) become of some concern to me.

Politically I'm an extreme leftist with anarchist sympathies and, so long as we have states, I'm against the existence of all nation-states, preferring the concept of multi-ethnic federations. This is the only solution I can see for Turkey's problem with the Kurds at present (other than secession of almost half the country, and even that wouldn't solve the problem of the rights of Kurds who live in the North and West of the country), and frankly the only solution I can see for all countries in the future.

That's all I can think of to say for now! I hope I haven't already offended anybody.

[Barış]

Welcome to RBK!

I noticed your username is 'thearabchildren', but you're of Jewish Nationality. I'm a curious cat, so I have to ask ya a question.
I know many peoples have been saying that if the Israeli Jews give the West Bank and East Jerusalem to the Palestinians, then there will finally be peace between the Jews and the Palestinians. Anyway, I'd like to know what your thoughts are on that?

[Kulka]

the problem is that you still think like classical Turk - if you use the expression "seccesion" of half country.
you know - for Kurds its not seccesion but getting freedom of northern part of Kurdistan from turkish occupation and getting independence. thats how WE call it. Kurds are not ethnic group to live withing foreign country boarders. Kurds are more than 40 million Nation. If the existance of Monaco or Andora is legitimate - why we should live in a federation with other nations, within THEIR country boarders?

[thearabchildren]

Barış: My thoughts are that the Zionist state can't last much longer, and it's not about us "giving" land to the Palestinians, but everyone finally getting their right to live and move about freely. The Zionist state has made it clear with its behaviour that it won't "give" the Palestinians a two-state solution, and the Palestinians deserve better anyway.

Kulka: I don't think the existence of Monaco or Andorra ARE legitimate. I am for the people uniting and borders disappearing, as a general rule. For example, Andorra exists, and then outside of its borders, Catalan gets a "subservient" treatment. The Netherlands exists, and so France thinks that the Dutch don't deserve rights within France. The Bretons don't even get a state, and probably never will, but they still deserve all the rights of French speakers. I only refer to a secession because legally speaking, that's how the UN or whoever would view it. Let's say we "liberate" all of Kurdistan, what then for the Kurds in Istanbul? Who will give them their rights? Will Turkey respect them because now there's a Kurdish state? Why doesn't the Kemalist state respect the rights of Turkish Arabs then, seeing how many Arab states there are? The problem is not the lack of a Kurdish state, but the oppression of the existing Turkish state. If the entire country's official language was Kurdish, this would be, for me, far more just than "giving" the Kurds "their" land.

The whole misunderstanding between my thinking and yours is best displayed when you say "Why should we live within THEIR borders". But I don't accept them as THEIR borders at all (nor do I accept borders in the long-run). I won't accept the government in charge of Anatolia until at LEAST it accepts that the country is AS MUCH the Kurds' as it is the Turks'.

For both of you, perhaps reading this will give you a better idea of how I think: http://electronicintifada.net/content/different-kind-occupation-interview-elia-suleiman/8654

I certainly do not wish to think like a "classical Turk" (I hope you mean "Kemalist" though, because not all Turks think as they are traditionally taught to think by their filthy government). The entire reason I am here (on this forum) is that I am tired of the Kemalist media and government's grand success at silencing any discussion on the Kurdish issue. What we are treated to, daily, here, as any Turkish Kurd on this forum I'm sure will agree, is the idea that if the PKK stops existing, there is no more problem, that so long as the Kurds are "allowed" to speak their language, they have all their "rights", and should learn Turkish history/language/nationalism in school and speak of their brothers in Iraq as foreigners and the Turks in Azerbaijan as brothers. I am here specifically because I need to be around people unafraid to talk about the existence of a Kurdish nation spanning the lands of several nation-states, even if we don't agree on everything politically, I don't agree politically with everything all Turks say but I am treated to all their opinions freely and daily (very similar to how the "Israeli" media and government treats Arabs, one is free to say what one wants, provided one is a Jew).

[ideas]

thearabchildren,

Why would Kurds want to live in a country called 'Turkey'? after all the name of the country itself which brands everyone as 'Turks' is an insult itself! also history has proved that Kurds are better off ruling themselves! this multi-culture thing just does not work, and comparing the middle east to america just does not work and I'll tell you why... first of all when the Europeans migrated to america they already had a country, they just went to america and laid the stones for a new one... not to mention the killing of the indigenous american people, living with Arabs, Turks and Persians has been ridiculous, as Kurds have seen years of genocide, mass killing and assimilation.

Another reason is that when people say Iraq they say 'oh you know that Arab country' or when people talk about Iran they say 'oh you know that Persian country' or when people say Turkey they say 'oh you know that Turkish country' and when people say Syria they again refer to it as an Arab country... now why would Kurds that are around 40 million people (a bigger population than Syria and Iraq not combined!) want to be apart of this countries? why would we not want a Kurdistan where our people can live freely?

I'm sorry I just don't believe in that hippie stuff, the human race is a cruel race......

P.S: I'm 25% Jewish.

[thearabchildren]

ideas: I'm sorry to say that I know that you're right, the human race IS a cruel race, and my ideas are a bit "hippie", but I won't give up on my ideals all the same. And even if I never get to see my ideals become reality, I won't accept the current situation where your voice is not given the same legitimacy in the Kemalist republic as that of a Turkish nationalist. It is for this reason that I totally agree with your first paragraph: Kurds should NOT accept that the name of the country is Turkey. We live in ANATOLIA, and Anatolia does not consist only of Turks, but Arabs, Laz, Armenians, Circassians, Kurds, etc. There HAS to be a change, or there will never be peace (the government, of course, doesn't WANT peace, they want the Turkish people to keep blaming the Kurds instead of the government).

The Kurds must be allowed to live freely no matter what country they live in, just as all peoples must be.

PS: Şalom, em hemû Cihu ne. Em hemû misilman in.

[ideas]

I'm afraid the problem lies with in the Turkish public! now I won't generalize and say all Turks are bad, but unfortunately the majority are! they are mostly ultra-nationalists are are brought up to believe in that system since their early school years.. The Kurdish constitution recognizes all the ethnic groups with in Kurdistan such as the Turkmen, Assyrians and Armenians, it also recognizes all their language and hence their allowed by law to teach their own language in school before they teach Kurdish! and that is the case in many school! The majority of Turks that I have spoken to agree with their government policies, infact they are angry with the little that has been done and calling their government traitors.

P.S: Once 20% of Kurdistans population were Jewish! only a small number of them migrated to Israel! the majority stayed and converted to Islam like my grandfather! many Kurds acknowledge the fact that they have some part Jewish in them!

You might also be interested in this, it's a Jewish magazine printed once a month in Erbil/Hawler. This is the site: http://www.israelkurd.com/en/ and this is one of the magazines, they have more: http://issuu.com/kurdisrael/docs/2_english

[thearabchildren]

The Turkish public is merely taught nonsense by its government. It is not responsible for its stupidity, but I do think the enlightened among it are responsible for fighting the government's lies and reeducating the people (as in every state). For example, you say many Turks are ultra-nationalists and repeat the government lies and even refer to the minor recent reforms as traitorous. Surely this is true, and I've met many such Turks, but I have also met many Turkish Kurds who repeat the same sentiments! So shouldn't we also blame the Kurdish public in Turkey?

For what you say about the treatment of minorities in Northern Iraq/Southern Kurdistan, I can't agree with it simply because I haven't been there, but I would love to come. However I will say that a Turkish friend of mine (from Kayseri, living in İzmir) says something similar (that Turks in Northern Iraq are treated better than Kurds anywhere in Turkey). From my perspective, the problem isn't a lack of progressive Turks, but that so many of them are ambivelant. That they don't see the Kurds as the top priority they are, being such a large nation inhabiting such a poor part of the country and so systematically attacked by the organs of state. They say they're opposed to it, but they often ask me why I'm so obsessed with it. The people who do seem to spend a lot of energy thinking about the Kurds in Turkey, sadly, are the fascists who tell me I'm trying to "divide Turkey", who tell me the Kurds don't deserve anything more than they already have, that this is how nation-states work, that everyone in Turkey is a Turk, even if they're a Kurd, that the Kurdish flag is a terrorist flag, that the PKK started the problem, or rather that filthy foreigners like me started the problem and created the PKK, and that the Kurds are happy in Turkey and that the country is richer for its diversity (even as they oppose any public display of that diversity!), that this is how France treats its minorities (France also deports gypsies and collaborated with the Nazis and puts foreigners in great ghettos outside Paris and don't give them jobs and the cops kill them! Not everything about France is so great!) that America is worse (I agree, but I don't ever defend America) that "Israel" is worse (maybe, but I never defend the Zionist state), that Armenia is worse (maybe, WHO CARES!?). The people who you're talking to, I agree, have no self-criticism, but let's not forget what sort of country they live in! People often play this weird game with Turkey, where they call it an authoritarian state (almost a redunancy, with which I agree of course) one minute and then ask why Turks "choose" to be the way they are the next (I thought there was no freedom in Turkey? Why would the Turks be "free" to choose their chauvanistic, militarist, pro-American leadership?)

As for your links, I'll check 'em out. I think we all have ancestors who were something other than what we think were, but I am getting very curious about this Kurdish/Jewish connection... Do you know about the Mountain Jews? They speak something like a dialect of Persian, I wonder if there's a shared ancestry there...

[ideas]

I just simply don't believe nation states work! they may work for a while, but sooner or later they will fail! look at the UK for example! how trouble they had? and in the end, the UK has several countries with in it... the human race is not ready for this, and will probably never be ready for this kind of things... in an ideal world, that would be great... but this world is not ideal, and it's certainly not fair, which is why the Kurds need their own country!

No, I don't know much about the mountain Jews, could be interesting indeed! I did hear about a DNA research that found that Kurds and jews are pretty close.

[thearabchildren]

I'm sorry, there is a lot of ideology here and I want to discuss it, but I feel like there's other stuff we should discuss which is more personal:

I'm from California, but my parents are from New York and ancestrally from Russia. My wife is from Kars (Qers ). Her mother's family speaks Turkish among themselves, but they all also seem to speak at least basic Kurdish (because Kars is so full of Kurds), and her mother in particular identifies very strongly with the Kurds. She hates Atatürk for example, and is always telling us about all the horrible things the Turkish army has done to the Kurds. Her attitude is quite progressive, but then, she was never subjected to the brainwashing we call the school system. People learn a lot of nonsense in schools, some of it less benign than the rest.

Where in Kurdistan are you from? Do you live there now?

[ideas]

I'm from a small town in slemani province, south Kurdistan.. I don't know much about my grandfather as he passed away when I was young... but what I do know is that he was Jewish and converted to Islam becuase of my grandfather! I speak Sorani and English, I currently live in the UK and I'm a student.

[thearabchildren]

Where in the UK?

[ideas]

Where in the UK?

England

[thearabchildren]

Londonistan? I'm mostly just hoping because I think Londonistan is just such a great place. Is there anything like a Kurdish community in England? Because I know for example in Germany there is (with a relationship with the German Turks that varies pretty widely), but there are a lot less Mesopotamians in the UK, so I dunno like, how organised y'all can be.

[ideas]

There are 200,000 Kurds in the UK and yeah there are organizations! but I'm not that involved mainly because most of my time is consumed by my studies! but every year there is a massive newroz party in finisbury park, London.