Tribes

[zurderer]

Why is it a Joke? U never heard about the song kine em ? Who overcome the crusaders in the holy land? And about the romans, well, the Medo Persian empires had plenty of lessons for the ancient Greek and romans.



ignoring other nations are not a good sign. What is the help of kurdish people at second crusader? which nations(not race) fought against first crusaders?

or do you thing salahaddin is only one who fight against crusader and he is ruling an army full of kurds? distording historical fact is not a good way.

[Rumtaya]

I´ll give you a short brief history

In our Assyrian language we say to ourselves "Suraye", when writing this word you have a silenced "A" infront of it, which would write the word Asuraye, which leads to translate into english language as Assyrian.

Now, the term Suraye has developed also to identify itself with Christians, just the same with the indegnious people of Egypten, who are known as Copts.

The English word Copt is from New Latin Coptus, which is derived from Arabic qubṭi قبطي (pl: qubṭ قبط and aqbāṭ أقباط), an Arabisation of the Coptic word kubti (Bohairic) and/or kuptaion (Sahidic). This word is in turn derived from the Greek word Αἰγύπτιος, aiguptios: "Egyptian", from Αἴγυπτος, aiguptos: "Egypt".

So my dear karadox, Mr. I know the history...., you see what I mean?

In english you say Assyrians, in arabic you have Ashuri/Athuri and in the greek you have Syrians and in or language we use Ashuraye/Suraye and Athuraye (the "sh" is beeing replaced by the "th").

Now link Kurd please with the medians, hurrians, kassits, gutians etc.

here you can read tyare

http://books.google.de/books?id=dbUuX0m ... nv2tEHbbYw

[Vladimir]

You mean this Kardo? This is the Aramean version of Tall Armenian tale.

[sawra]

LOL. Barwar is Kurdish? Okay then:

"Urban life at Arbil can be dated back to at least the twenty-third century BC. The city's archaeological museum contains only pre-Islamic objects. The name of Arbil was mentioned in the Sumerian holy writings (about 2000 B.C.) as Arbilum, Orbelum or Urbilum. Later, Akkadians based on similarity and folk etymology rendered the name to mean four gods (arba'ū ilū). Assyrian goddess Ishtar. In classical times, the city was known by its Aramaic name, Arbela."

If we are going to play the name game, the Arbil is Assyrian. Originally meaning "4 Gods", as we have 4 gates at the outskirts of the city named for each god: "arba-IL". 4 Gods. But let's not play the name game. Just go to school and take an ancient history class. The silence about "Kurds" will be deafening, as will the hilarious attempts to make the Kurds "medians".

As for the Aram Nahrain garbage, I'm not going to go there. This is literally a church-created history as of the 1970's. Our most famous Assyrian nationalists were all Syriac Orthodox, from this church, until the Ba'athists arabized us. It's a sordid history which is useless to discuss with Kurds who refuse to even believe Assyrians exist (even though I'm standing right here......lol).

The thing is, Kurds would have a much better chance, and a much better moral authority, if they not only practiced what they preached in terms of fairness and self-determination, but if they just discussed this on a different level: We cannot argue that Kurds are not a majority, of course they are. We cannot argue that the Kurdistan Region in Iraq now exists, of course it does.

But when you try to make yourselves historically significant, or indigenous, you'll lose. This is basic. Talk on a level where you will win. Say "Assyrian history is underground, ours is above it". That will shut us up. But don't pretend you're from there. You're not. You're just there now.

[Vladimir]

When someone is indigenous? If he lives there for 1000 years or 2 million years? Stupid nationalism.

[sawra]

Vladimir, really? "Stupid nationalism?" The Kurds have succeeded because of their nationalism. Armenians, Turks, Arabs, Assyrians - all have the inherent right to be nationalists. It doesn't always translate into a negative thing. All human beings, all individuals, and all collective nations have the inherent right to self-determination, and uniquely also do indigenous people.

There is a UN permanent working group on indigenous nations, among several other international groups. When Kurds accept their place as "Newcomers" and respect the indgenous nation which lives there - even though we are less than them - then can we have decent dialogue with each other.

Assyrians would have been the best spokespersons for an independent Kurdistan, especially in Diaspora, where are much louder and better organized. Instead, we have been forced to defend our land rights and ensure the relevant bodies hear of human rights and political abuses against us.

[Piling]

When Kurds accept their place as "Newcomers"

well you can wait for a long time !

And I agree with Vladimir. This so-called "historical claim" about a land because of "so-called ancestors" stink. Let's decide people who live in the place for their own destiny, but not diaspora. It sounds like sionism.

[Vladimir]

Vladimir, really? "Stupid nationalism?" The Kurds have succeeded because of their nationalism. Armenians, Turks, Arabs, Assyrians - all have the inherent right to be nationalists. It doesn't always translate into a negative thing. All human beings, all individuals, and all collective nations have the inherent right to self-determination, and uniquely also do indigenous people.

There is a UN permanent working group on indigenous nations, among several other international groups. When Kurds accept their place as "Newcomers" and respect the indgenous nation which lives there - even though we are less than them - then can we have decent dialogue with each other.

Assyrians would have been the best spokespersons for an independent Kurdistan, especially in Diaspora, where are much louder and better organized. Instead, we have been forced to defend our land rights and ensure the relevant bodies hear of human rights and political abuses against us.

I don't believe nationalism will result in more human rights or less political 'abuse'. It will result in creating 'nations' and can result in destruction. But before the idea of nationalism - you had religious wars or wars between empires. There have always been war. But don't pretend that nationalism - doesn't matter Armenian, Arabic, Turkish, etc - has a scientific basis. If you will look to DNA profiles - you will see there are several genetic substrata - but it will be hard to see differences between 'Kurds', 'Turks', 'Assyrians'. There is only one race - the human races and they have created several cultures that are flexible. Ziya Gokalp's research already showed that you can become an Turk or Kurd. Same is with other identities. You can become christian, muslim, bahai, Kurd, Dutch, Turk, etc. But this depends on the circumstances.

[Piling]

Concerning the Syriac it was the political and officiel dialect of Aramaic in all the Middle east, with the Greek. Then I suppose that Assyrian nationalists should claim all the lands between Syria until Irak and even Iran for it was also one of the official language of Iranian empires...

When Arabs came, people who converted themselves to islam in Mesopotamia let the Syriac for Arabic or Persian in South and Kurdish in Jazira.
Kurdish tribes were originally more localized in Fars and Luristan, but when they gradually settled in Northern Mesopotamia and Jazira, they mixed with people. Those who adopted Islam were integrated in Kurdish tribes, and people who stayed Christians kept Syriac as their language, and Jews spoke Neo-Aramaic. A language is always spoken for political, cultural and religious reasons, not because of DNA and other fantasies.

Genetically, a Kurd is the same than an Assyrian of Bahdinan. Like Palestinian muslims or Christians are the same people who lived in Palestine some thousands years ago. They just adopted Islam and Arabic. Nationalism uses always so called scientific and genetic insanities...

[Rumtaya]

Then I suppose that Assyrian nationalists should claim all the lands between Syria until Irak and even Iran for it was also one of the official language of Iranian empires...

No, why should we? What does the language have to do with a Nation? Are the Latin Americans all Spanians (Excluding brasil) because they speak spanish?
We are fine with having Assyria as such as the area to be claimed (although the only part of Assyria which is realistic to claim is the NP and western Nohadra).

btw, you made also a funny statment which somehow remembers me to our "aramean" brothers, who would tell you you are Aramean, because you speak aramaic.

Genetically, a Kurd is the same than an Assyrian of Bahdinan. Like Palestinian muslims or Christians are the same people who lived in Palestine some thousands years ago. They just adopted Islam and Arabic. Nationalism uses always so called scientific and genetic insanities...

True that, you could say that at least 50% of Kurds residing in Northern Iraq (dohuk,aqra,np) could be said to have assyrian roots. An example I always like to put out is diris mothers side (sorry bro for mentioning you always, but its a very good example).

I am looking for the days some Kurds in Northern Iraq will realise that they are more close to Assyrians then to anyother people. Get back to Assyria and all problems will be gone .

[sawra]

Genetics has almost little to do with nationalism. We are who we say we are. Kurdified Assyrians are Kurds, Arabized Assyrians are Arabs, end of story. It isn't just language, it is culture, practices, in some cases religion, and geographic location.

All of these things, ALL, tie modern Assyrians to ancient ones. For goodness sakes, some of our churches, which are almost 1900 years old, are converted temples from our old gods, and they have been the same churches for millenia.

[Piling]

No, why should we? What does the language have to do with a Nation?

Then except the language, what is the distinction between an Assyrian of Duhok and a Kurd ? Because I have understood that you don't care of religion... If language has nothing to do with nation, if you share the same DNA than your muslim Kurdistani neighbours, what are specific national aspects among Assyrians ?

I am looking for the days some Kurds in Northern Iraq will realise that they are more close to Assyrians then to anyother people. Get back to Assyria and all problems will be gone .

The trouble is that in a democracy the majority is essential. Whatever you like or not, nowadays, Assyrians are a minority in Kurdistan. So even if you took the power on Duhok district and decide it should call Assyria, if you don't impose a dictatorship, by only one election, it would become Kurdistan again...

I think the idea of "Kurdistani" citizenship (which is not "Kurdish") is more realist and interesting, by giving the same rights to everybody. But if you like to create an autnomous area in Niniveh why not ? let's people decide by referendum again. The problem isthat there are not only Assyrians on the territories you claim. It is always a question of majority.

And you have to admit also that all Asssyrians have not the same opinion. Some say they are very fond or Iraq, etc.

[Rumtaya]

Then except the language, what is the distinction between an Assyrian of Duhok and a Kurd ? Because I have understood that you don't care of religion... If language has nothing to do with nation, if you share the same DNA than your muslim Kurdistani neighbours, what are specific national aspects among Assyrians ?

We have been Assyrians for thousands of years. Well, you might thing I dont care about religion, but I do. However religion is something someone should practice for his own and in lonlyness (excluding the church, holly fests etc.).

Dont you think it would be better tell those "lost" Assyrians about who they are? Isnt it more real to put the Assyrian Name on Northern Iraq, then others? Doesnt this name represent the equality because most of the people inhabiting the land are just more close to us (assyrians) then the Kurds might be to Persians, or the Sunni Arabs to The Saudis.

The trouble is that in a democracy the majority is essential. Whatever you like or not, nowadays, Assyrians are a minority in Kurdistan. So even if you took the power on Duhok district and decide it should call Assyria, if you don't impose a dictatorship, by only one election, it would become Kurdistan again...

I think the idea of "Kurdistani" citizenship (which is not "Kurdish") is more realist and interesting, by giving the same rights to everybody. But if you like to create an autnomous area in Niniveh why not ? let's people decide by referendum again. The problem isthat there are not only Assyrians on the territories you claim. It is always a question of majority.

And you have to admit also that all Asssyrians have not the same opinion. Some say they are very fond or Iraq, etc.

As for me I accept Kurds and Kurdistan, but I would never call myself Kurdistani, I even am against seeing my self as "Arab Syrian". I probably was born there, although I have an "arab syrian" passport my identification to this term is 0.

Well, we have made to a minority, 50 - 70 years ago the population in Nohadra looked quite diffrent, why should we Assyrians just accept now to be "Kurdistani", whereeas we have been driven FROCEFULY out of our homes? If Kurds are so for implementing Articale 140 agaisnt i.e. dearabization, isnt it just fair and right to ask the Kurds implement something in their Constitution to dekurdify the assyrian towns and villages in Nohadra?

Why should Assyrians change from Iraqis now to Kurdistani´s where is the diffrence for us?

to the Nineveh Plains, it will not be an Assyrian Autonmous region, but it will be an administrative Unit for nonassyrians also beeing mostly Shabaks,Yazedis and Arabs with very few Kurds....Kurds dont rant now, I know Yazedis partly see themselves as Kurds, but we should wait for the referendum to take place, but before that happens the Peshmerga needs to leave the area, if not I can just tell you now it wont be a representive and fair referendum.

Assyrians have diffrent opinions, everyone is allowed to share and discuss his idea. However before they start making any strange claims one has to look at the situation and it wouldnt be bad if someone would have studied his history abit, at least the last 150 years which were a very hard time for Assyrians.

Now a question to Kurds, you are a minority in Syria, why dont you get along with beeing called Syrian?
You are a minority in Iran, why dont you get along with staying Irani?

I mean, you guys need to realize you can not ask someone to do something which you even wouldnt accept!

How many Kurds here are aware that some of their forefathers have been anythingelse then decent to christians, especially to Assyrian Christians? Just let things throw your mind for one second, how come from once a flourishing Christian people in middle East from Lebanon - West Iran, be decimated to a litly minorty not counting more then 500 000 in its ancestrol homeland (Ninveh Plains, Western Arbil province and parts of Dohuk province)?

If someone wants to be treated fair he should treat fair, and I just can repeat a friends word, if the Kurds would more try to REAL and HONESTLY help out Assyrians, you guys would have a stron suppourter for you Inpendce, especially within the Assyrians in the Diaspora.

You must konw Assyrians arent people who really would run around and putting always the diffrent massacres, genocide and land ursupper, if you guys would start to work honestly with us.

KDP has a VERY aggresive policy and that not only against the Assyrians, but also against Kurds who dont share their opinion and if you try now to look for any excuses then you aint better then those people, who are filling their pocket with hundred of millions whereeas some people are straving or beeing imprisoned because they dont share a Agha´s Idea.

I wish the Kurdish Nation would contain more Diri´s , especially in its leadership, although his land owner ideas are kinda exegarrated, but yeah. Assyrians can at the moment claim an area beeing NP and western Dohuk (there is no mountain in western dohuk hehe).

Its in ours generation to change the misures, because the older generation are in so much hate witheachother. But we all are educated we can take books read and learn from history and try to make the FUTURE bright by working in fairness and righthouseness.

[Piling]

We have been Assyrians for thousands of years.

Of course not. It sounds as so weird than an italien saying : "we are Romans for thousands or years." There is nothing in common between former people and present's. Fortunately, humans change, and you share nothing in culture of former Assyrians. They are strangers for you.

Isnt it more real to put the Assyrian Name on Northern Iraq, then others? Doesnt this name represent the equality because most of the people inhabiting the land are just more close to us (assyrians) then the Kurds might be to Persians, or the Sunni Arabs to The Saudis

it has no more reality than calling it mesopotamia or Iraq. names are conventions. But if you think that Kurds will change their land by Assyria you can wait for a long time... Moreover it was called Bilad al Akrad since the first islamic time, so it is not a "new" name.

but I would never call myself Kurdistani, I even am against seeing my self as "Arab Syrian".

No one had asked you to call like that and no one will ask you, for you don't live within KRG. It will be applied only for citizens living in the Region of Kurdistan.

why should we Assyrians just accept now to be "Kurdistani", whereeas we have been driven FROCEFULY out of our homes?

You seem to forget that many Assyrians living in Iraq are new settler, from 1915. Much, of them lived in current "Turkey".

isnt it just fair and right to ask the Kurds implement something in their Constitution to dekurdify the assyrian towns and villages in Nohadra?

i don't know what you means exactly by the territory of "Nohadra". if it is out of KRG, perhaps Assyrians will succeed to obtain their own district from iraq. If it is partly in current KRG, you'll have no chance. Even "Western Duhok", where lived Kurds also in majority, and you know that yezidis consider themselves like Kurds. So if you organize a referendum in the district, you'll lost.

Kurds dont rant now, I know Yazedis partly see themselves as Kurds, but we should wait for the referendum to take place, but before that happens the Peshmerga needs to leave the area, if not I can just tell you now it wont be a representive and fair referendum.

it is the same plan that Christians near of KRG, in fact. I agree that for the referendum will be unsuspected (even if be sure that international watchers will be there), Peshermags should not organize and securize the poll.

But you seem to forget that IF Niniveh plains is a shelter now for your people, it is because Peshmergas protect it. Before their coming, it was just a nest for Al Qaeda. If suddenly thousands and thousands of christians are coming there, or all the priests in Qarakosh, you know it is because Peshmerga are there. Not sure that you could trust Iraqi army for this job...

So it is nice to ask that peshmerga will leave the country. They won't stay by force, moreover. But it is a serious thing to envisage : would you be able to protect all the refugees by yourself ? Are you personnally ready to go and take a weapon for that ? At least, sionist Jews won their country by their personnal courage. But diaspora only talk and chat and ask others to take risks on the ground.

Now a question to Kurds, you are a minority in Syria, why dont you get along with beeing called Syrian?
You are a minority in Iran, why dont you get along with staying Irani?

I can answer myself easily. You chose the wrong case, for Syria is not a name relating to a people (except to you, who are the former "Syrian") ; Iran is not a name of a ethny, as Persia was in former periods. So the trouble is not for a Kurd in Syria to be called "Syrian" but "Arab". And concerning Iran, even if they are less racist than Baath and Kemalists, Kurds, firstly, were complaining not to be "from Iran" but to be oppressed by Persians and then Mollah.

I know that the name "Kurdistan" is a problem for Turkmens, Assyrians, Arabs. For that reason, the KRg with the help of some French Canadians tried to find an "alternative" citizenship name, Kurdistani meaning "from Kurdistan" and not "Kurd". It is the same debate in Turkey concerning the "Turks" and the people who are from "Turkey". No one in Kuridstan want to make the same mistake than Kemalists or Baathists.

So it is not a perfect name, but if you launch a referendum to chose the name of the country be sure that people will refuse to change that name.

So if you ant to built your Assyria, begin to ask realistic thing. And be sure before that you'll be foolowed by your own compatriot. Because now, among the 4000 refugees in Nineveh, how many want to stay really in that place ? It would be interesting to listen to them also. As I could have constated, much christians coming from Baghdad, for example, and living in Kurdistan, miss Baghdad and not Assyria, or they would like to emigrate in USA. If you want to save the Assyrian presence in the country, chose the most realistic thing and also the safetest place for these people. Because they are not ready to fight or to face dangers instead of you.

[Vladimir]

Genetics has almost little to do with nationalism. We are who we say we are. Kurdified Assyrians are Kurds, Arabized Assyrians are Arabs, end of story. It isn't just language, it is culture, practices, in some cases religion, and geographic location.

All of these things, ALL, tie modern Assyrians to ancient ones. For goodness sakes, some of our churches, which are almost 1900 years old, are converted temples from our old gods, and they have been the same churches for millenia.

Haha! Indeed! Nationalism denies the genetic fact that people are the same. You say who you are. And that can be EVERYTHING. You can be a Chaldean, christian Kurd/Arab/Turk/Persian/Iranian, Assyrian, Aramean, Chaldo-Aramean, Jacobite, etc. Lot of the practises, customs and habits and geographic location of Kurds, Assyrians, Turks, Arabs, Iranians, etc are the same..