Tribes

[Vladimir]

But the question of 'Kurdistani' is a bit strange. You mean a Kurdistani within the federal region of Kurdistan within Iraq. That would mean that you can be Iraqi/Kurdistani at the same time. Yes, same problem is in Turkey - Turkyeli from Turkey. But it's still from a 'Turk- ey' and from a Kurdistan - i. This would mean for minorities to accept the dominant ethnic ideology. I don't know if ethnic nationalism will accept anything like that. Assyrian nationalists don't want to say they are from Kurdistan, nor Kurdish nationalists want to say they are from Turkey. But radical nationalists are a minority anyways. Most 'Assyrians' probable don't say they are from Assyria and most Kurds don't say they are from Kurdistan.

[Piling]

But the question of 'Kurdistani' is a bit strange. You mean a Kurdistani within the federal region of Kurdistan within Iraq. That would mean that you can be Iraqi/Kurdistani at the same time. Yes, same problem is in Turkey - Turkyeli from Turkey. But it's still from a 'Turk- ey' and from a Kurdistan - i.

Yeah for this reason it is not a perfect multi-ethny name, but Kurdistan is also a historical and geographical namen not a sudden creation like "Turkey". Moreover you can't prevent that a huge majority of ppl living in Kurdistan are Kurds. And there are many others countries marked by a such ethnic-historical" name : France (which came from a German people), for example, and none of us feel they are occupied by German elite (except in Alsace). Living in Kurdistan does not mean be a Kurd, and, moreover, I do'nt think that the name of the country is so important, except when it has taken a symbolic and historical importance as Kurdistan did. You can not prevent that since 1920s people in that land fought in the name of Kurdistan (even Christian Peshmergas...). I know many Assyrians in Kurdistan who are pro-Kurdistan (and some Turkmen also).

But if some others wwant their own "Assyria", well they could build one in Niniveh. In that case, all of them would have their own piece of cake and will stop to cry and complain... If there are one Assyria, beside one Kurdistan, the people who hate to be called Kuridstani could live in the next province, where will live "Kurdish Assyrians"...

[Rumtaya]

Belad al Akrad? what was it? Where was it located...someone to give me a trustworthy resource to read about it?

And about what you said that assyrians have no connection, are we from the moon?

Well Assyrians (nestorians) lived mostly in southeast turkey, hakkari , they settled there due to the mongol attack on Assyria in 14th century.


Assyrians dont mind Kurdistan, just not to the size wished by Kurds, before they do anything they should return the vilalges and properties and then they can ask for indepndce.

Assyrians will make their way dont worry about it

[Piling]

Reference ? in Saladin et les Kurdes, Etudes kurdes Hors-Série n°II, Boris James, Institut français de Damas, all historical mentions of "Bilad al Akrad" or "Zozan al-Akrad" under the calame of classical historians or geopgraphers are listed. I have not the book in hands now but tomorrow I can quote the names and the precise references of Arab editions.

And about what you said that assyrians have no connection, are we from the moon?

I mean that after thousand and thousands years the cultural and political connexion between 2 populations is a fantasy. It is the same for everybody.

they should return the vilalges and properties and then they can ask for indepndce.

The trouble is that, for the moment Assyrians who came back in their villages (for example around Zakho) don't feel really at home. They miss cities, Baghdad or Mosul or Basra. Moreover they have not job in mountains. They were traders, restaurant owners, physicians, teachers, etc, not farmers. I am not sure thy will stay. But if they do, they will be like Turkmens, without territorial continuity, so it will be difficult to ask a dispatched country. At first, try to work in Niniveh, you will see in Duhok or Hakkari later

[Rumtaya]

The trouble is that, for the moment Assyrians who came back in their villages (for example around Zakho) don't feel really at home. They miss cities, Baghdad or Mosul or Basra. Moreover they have not job in mountains. They were traders, restaurant owners, physicians, teachers, etc, not farmers. I am not sure thy will stay. But if they do, they will be like Turkmens, without territorial continuity, so it will be difficult to ask a dispatched country. At first, try to work in Niniveh, you will see in Duhok or Hakkari later

Well its not easy to change the way of life from one moment to the other, dont you think so? Well, its what assyrians are most focoused on the Nineveh Plains, because this one is very realistic to archive something.

However, what do you think about the wild claims by the KRG to offer and Assyrian Autonomie better said a Christian autonomie for them, when they join the KRG?

Reference ? in Saladin et les Kurdes, Etudes kurdes Hors-Série n°II, Boris James, Institut français de Damas, all historical mentions of "Bilad al Akrad" or "Zozan al-Akrad" under the calame of classical historians or geopgraphers are listed. I have not the book in hands now but tomorrow I can quote the names and the precise references of Arab editions.

Where was Salahdin born? In todays Eastern Turkey (former western Armenia...)

Yeah there is a Kurdistan, it is located around the van-hakkari-urmia area. This is the Kurdistan I know from diffrent maps during diffrent empires. The Kurdistan area did expand with the growing population and sizing of christian villages, beeing armenian or assyrians.

We probably should wait what th UN,EU,USA and of course IRAQ will do about this issue, algon the hundred of thousand assyrian refugees in jordania, syria and turkey.

[Savy]

Where was Salahdin born? In todays Eastern Turkey (former western Armenia...)

Saladin was born in Tikrit, Iraq.

[Vladimir]

Then you can wait long...

[Piling]

Saladin was borned in Tikrit just because his father was stayed there at this time, serving as an officer under Zengi's banner. His grand-father was from Dvin in Armenia. Many nomadic settlements were around Urmia, between current Armenia and Azerbayjan.

In Classical and medieval times, you have to make a distinction between territories where Kurds scattered and moved for summer or winter pastures (around Mosul, Jezireh, for example) or between Ispahan, the Fars, Hamadhan, Zenjan, etc and some places that were considered by Geographers like "Bilad Al Akrad or Zozan Al Akrad". The heart of that Bilad al Akrad seemed to be between Erbil and Hisn Kayfa, at north, until Zagros and the current Iranian Kurdistan at east. But borders change. At 16th century, Sheref Khan of Bitlis gave the precise borders of what he called Kurdistan (but at this time, Great Lurs and Lesser Lurds were included in Kurdish tribes). But all around, they share the land with Syrians (who were urban dwellers or farmers), Arabs nomads and later Turkmens (and there had bloody fights for pastures between these two groups, until, at last, Turks moved in Western Anatolia and Kurds stayed in East).

One of the earliest description of Kurdish settlements was written by Ibn Hawqal, 10th century, who draw with his own hand Kurdish camps, on one map. But between 10th century until 16th, tribes moved and spred, and also after the genocide of 1915. But the region that I have mentionned above which called Zozan by geographers did not change in its original center :

http://northerniraq.info/blog/?p=172#more-172

[Piling]

However, what do you think about the wild claims by the KRG to offer and Assyrian Autonomie better said a Christian autonomie for them, when they join the KRG?

I don't understand. What is the point ? To be called Christian or Assyrian ? Well it is an inner "Assyrian-Chaldean" problem. Some say they are Christians above all, some others Assyrians, some others both together...and some others say they are Iraqi and even Arab christians ! I don't think that Kurds have to decide for them, but if some Assyrians in KRG say something different than ADM , you call them traitors, bla bla bla. Then I don't think that Kurds are shocked by the name "Assyrians", they say indifferently Ashurî or Kadenî or kristianî (now educated people have realized that saying fellah is not a nice name ) ;

[Rumtaya]

However, what do you think about the wild claims by the KRG to offer and Assyrian Autonomie better said a Christian autonomie for them, when they join the KRG?

I don't understand. What is the point ? To be called Christian or Assyrian ? Well it is an inner "Assyrian-Chaldean" problem. Some say they are Christians above all, some others Assyrians, some others both together...and some others say they are Iraqi and even Arab christians ! I don't think that Kurds have to decide for them, but if some Assyrians in KRG say something different than ADM , you call them traitors, bla bla bla. Then I don't think that Kurds are shocked by the name "Assyrians", they say indifferently Ashurî or Kadenî or kristianî (now educated people have realized that saying fellah is not a nice name ) ;

You havnt answerd my question.

The name problem does has something to do with the various churches i.e. its a religous issue which has been made in the last times a political one, since some "aramean" and "chaldean" parties were created, as for the chaldean it happend with the suppourt of the KDP, how friendly or?

No I didnt say that someone who works not for ADM is a traitor, but someone who works FOR someone who is not Assyrian is a traitor, since he cant work for the Assyrian Cause right or RIGHT?

ADM truly works WITH the KURDS, the ARABS, the TURKOMANS and the SHABAKS, however they do not work FOR anyone of those!

Christianty as I see it is a faith which need to be kept something personal, since it is between you and God. I dont need to walk around and scream out I am CHRISTIAN WEEEEEEHAAAA...

The Middle East is 300 years afterwards the Western Nations, because people there mostly still afflicated themselves with their dominatious group....I am kaldani = I am a catholic Christian
I syriani = I am an orthodox christian
I am Sunna = I am an sunna muslim
I am Shia = I am a shiit muslim

etc.

Now if you try to educate an old man from the chaldean rite telling him your of assyrian stock, he will say what? no no I am keladani seeing it just as the church he does his service at.

However you should know that the Assyrians from the Church of the east are a very very small part living mostly in cities of northern Iraq and to an extend in village areas like sapna, barwar, nahla etc. However the big portion of the people who freely declare themselves to be Assyrians are of the chaldean rite in Iraq.

Now if there wouldnt have been a Baath Regime, most of the people ("syriac christians"), wouldnt have been forced to keep their name to each church they belong.

Beside that, if you would look at Assyrians from Western Iran, the majority of them is from the chaldean rite, however they do know how to distingnuish between their name and their church.

Get the IDEA?



btw. would be nice to read something on english about Zozan al Akrad or Belad al Akrad...thanks!!!

[Piling]

You havnt answerd my question.

because I did not understand it, as I told.

No I didnt say that someone who works not for ADM is a traitor, but someone who works FOR someone who is not Assyrian is a traitor, since he cant work for the Assyrian Cause right or RIGHT?

Well there are a bunch of Assyrians who worked hiddenly for Baath in fact, even within ADM.

Concerninf the distinction Assyrian/Chaldeans it has no importance for me, and none for Kurds, you know. It is just an inner problem of Christians.

btw. would be nice to read something on english about Zozan al Akrad or Belad al Akrad...thanks!!!

I have not. Don't you read Arabic ?

There were 2 Zuzan, an Armenian and a Kurdish one. According to Ibn Hawqal, tke "malik" of Zuzan was "Al Dayrani (perhaps the Armenian king Deranik) ; in the 13th century, Yaqût al Hamwî said that Zuzan is " a region in the center of Armenian mountains, between Akhlat, Azerbayjan, Diyar Bakr and Mosul. Its inhabitants are Armenians (ahlula arman) ; there are also Kurdish groups (wa fihâ tawaîf min Al Akrad) ; (Mu'jam al Buldan, ed; Dar Ihya' al Turah al-Arabî, 1979, see "Zuzan").

Al Baladhurî : "When Iyad b. Ghanam seized Jazirat ibn Umar, he went on Qardâ and Bâzabda, reaching it by the way of Zuzan (bitarîq al Zuzan). (Kitab futuh al Buldan, Leyden, 1866 ; translated by Philipp K. Hitti, in The origin of Islamic State, Beyrouth, 1966.

Ibn Al Athir : The zuzan is a region at the east of Tigris until Jazireh. It begins at 2 days from Mosul and spred until the limits of Khilat (Akhlat). It ends in Azerbayjan until the limits of the Salmas district. There there numerous citadels, well defended, all owning to by Kurds from Bashnawiyya and Bukhtiyya tribes." In an else point of the book, he called it "Zuzan al-Akrad" is used by Ibn Al-Ahtir, in Al Kamil fi'l tarikh, ed. Dâr al kutub al-'ilmiya, Beyrouth, 1998, t. X, p. 136.


Bilad al Akrad is used by 'Imad al Din al Isfahani, in Kharidat al Qasr, ed. Baghdad, 1955, t. IV, p. 421.
Al-Sha'rani, in his Tabaqat al Kubrâ, said that the Sheykh Jamal Al DIn Yusuf al Kurdî missed his relatives who lived in Hisn Kayfa, "a city of the Bilad al Akrad" (http://www.alwaraq.com , notice on Saydî Ibrahim Al MAhdi, p. 467.

[Rumtaya]

You havnt answerd my question.

because I did not understand it, as I told.

No I didnt say that someone who works not for ADM is a traitor, but someone who works FOR someone who is not Assyrian is a traitor, since he cant work for the Assyrian Cause right or RIGHT?

Well there are a bunch of Assyrians who worked hiddenly for Baath in fact, even within ADM.

Concerninf the distinction Assyrian/Chaldeans it has no importance for me, and none for Kurds, you know. It is just an inner problem of Christians.

btw. would be nice to read something on english about Zozan al Akrad or Belad al Akrad...thanks!!!

I have not. Don't you read Arabic ?

There were 2 Zuzan, an Armenian and a Kurdish one. According to Ibn Hawqal, tke "malik" of Zuzan was "Al Dayrani (perhaps the Armenian king Deranik) ; in the 13th century, Yaqût al Hamwî said that Zuzan is " a region in the center of Armenian mountains, between Akhlat, Azerbayjan, Diyar Bakr and Mosul. Its inhabitants are Armenians (ahlula arman) ; there are also Kurdish groups (wa fihâ tawaîf min Al Akrad) ; (Mu'jam al Buldan, ed; Dar Ihya' al Turah al-Arabî, 1979, see "Zuzan").

Al Baladhurî : "When Iyad b. Ghanam seized Jazirat ibn Umar, he went on Qardâ and Bâzabda, reaching it by the way of Zuzan (bitarîq al Zuzan). (Kitab futuh al Buldan, Leyden, 1866 ; translated by Philipp K. Hitti, in The origin of Islamic State, Beyrouth, 1966.

Ibn Al Athir : The zuzan is a region at the east of Tigris until Jazireh. It begins at 2 days from Mosul and spred until the limits of Khilat (Akhlat). It ends in Azerbayjan until the limits of the Salmas district. There there numerous citadels, well defended, all owning to by Kurds from Bashnawiyya and Bukhtiyya tribes." In an else point of the book, he called it "Zuzan al-Akrad" is used by Ibn Al-Ahtir, in Al Kamil fi'l tarikh, ed. Dâr al kutub al-'ilmiya, Beyrouth, 1998, t. X, p. 136.


Bilad al Akrad is used by 'Imad al Din al Isfahani, in Kharidat al Qasr, ed. Baghdad, 1955, t. IV, p. 421.
Al-Sha'rani, in his Tabaqat al Kubrâ, said that the Sheykh Jamal Al DIn Yusuf al Kurdî missed his relatives who lived in Hisn Kayfa, "a city of the Bilad al Akrad" (http://www.alwaraq.com , notice on Saydî Ibrahim Al MAhdi, p. 467.

I read some stuff up in the internet, however as I could read the area around vane-urmia-suleimani seems to be fiting as kurdish homeland. But its was just litle I was able to read up.

Well not really, I am doing arabic at uni however it is not enough to read fluently.


Yes there were Assyrians working for Baath ----> traitors



thats what I read, although its from an assyrian he refers to the sources he got it from:


Ibn Jubayr (1144-1217) was born in Andalusia, the name given to present Spain and Portugal during the Arab Islamic rule of the Iberian Peninsula. He was a scholar in Islamic studies and of literature. However, what he is most famous for is the three long journeys he took in the Moslem world at the time. Later, he described his travel experiences in a book titled "The Journey of Ibn Jubayr." About the city of Nisibin in Assyria, Ibn Jubayr writes on page 215 that they visited the city for one day and upon leaving the city, they were cautious because of continuous attacks by Kurds who he described as the disease of the region from Mosul to Nisibin and to Dunaysir. The Kurds, writes Ibn Jubayr, brought decay and spoiledness to the region and they lived in the protected mountainous region nearby the cities mentioned above. Even the successive sultans, adds Ibn Jubayr, were unable to suppress and tame the Kurds who might have sometimes and during their raids reached the gates of Nisibin. [4] Here, Ibn Jubayr attests that the Kurds lived in the mountainous regions beyond the cities of Mosul and Nisibin. He states that these Kurds in their raids might have sometimes reached the gates of Nisibin. The last sentence here proves clearly that the Kurds were not dwellers of the cities in question but rather the mountains near by and that in their raids they might have and sometimes, and I stress 'might have and sometimes,' reached Nisibin.

Their presence in Persia (Iran) is described for example by Meisami. The author writes: "As for the Kurds of Fars, Ibn al-Balkhi notes that whereas in ancient times the indigenous Kurds were the glory of the Persian armies, with the coming of Islam they were all killed in battle or disappeared, except for a sole survivor who converted and whose descendants still live. The present Kurds of Fars were settled there by 'Adud al-Dawla, who brought them from the region of Isfahan." [7]

A. Hakan Özuglu states that there does not exist a fixed Kurdistan and a Kurdish identity. Although a "core region," which could be "imagined," defined as Kurdistan,
exists and in relation to which the Kurdish identity is formed, the boundaries of perceived Kurdistan are always in flux. Therefore, the perceived identity of the Kurd
constantly changes, corresponding the demands of time and space. [8] Scholars have been trying to find the link of the modern Kurds in history. One of the most cited
works is an article by a British scholar G. R. Driver. The scholar finds early mention of the word Kurd in Sumerian clay tablet from 3rd millennium B.C., on which a land
of Kar-da or Qar-da was inscribed. This land was the region of the south of Lake Van (in eastern Turkey) inhabited by the people of "Su" who were connected with the
Qur-ti-e, a group of mountain dwellers. The evidence though is too inconclusive to rely on. [9 A] Vladimir Minorsky, the author of the entry Kurds in the "Encyclopedia
of Islam" suggests that the origin of Kurds is from the Medes. However, he states that the origin of the Kurds in buried in ancient times. Thus, one can classify Minorsky
as a member of the essentialist school.


Most reliable references to Kurds come with the invasion of Arabs of the 8th century. Hence, it is not a surprise to find that the modern word Kurd is of Arabic origin.
Arab sources give systematic information concerning the distribution of the Kurdish tribes. The administrative term Kurdistan was used first by the Seljuk. In the 12th
century, Sultan Sancar establishes the administrative region of Kurdistan in the eastern parts of the Zagros Mountains near Hamadan. The suffix –istan "the land of"
is of Persian origin, hence, the earliest use of the name Kurdistan was is use by non-Kurds. Interestingly, the Arabs did not refer to Kurds as the inhabitants of Kurdistan,
rather the inhabitants of Jabal (mountain), Zozan, Azarbaycan (Azerbaijan), and Armenia. The Arabs called collectively the people of unfamiliar Persian and Turkish
languages as Kurds.



The earliest document that shows the perception of Kurdistan comes only in 1597-1598 from a book "Serefname" written by Serefhan Bitlisi, the ruler of Bitlis Emirate,
located in present-time city of Bitlis. Serefhan in essence defines Kurdistan as the entire western Iran, including a line from Basra to Azerbaijan, little and great Armenia,
southeastern Turkey, and to Malatya, most of Iraq, including Mosul and all the way to Diyarbakir. While this is most ludicrous since it seems that Bitlisi is considering
the so-called Kurdistan every single region with Kurds in it, regardless to their population. It is silly to claim that most of Iraq, little and great Armenia or the Tur 'Abdin
Christian region in northern Mesopotamia were in the past part of the so-called Kurdistan.

However, Ahmade Hani in his epic Mem-u Zin in the 17th century illustrates that the Kurdish conscious existed indeed. The Treaty of Kasr-i Shirin of 1639 between the
Ottoman Turks and Safavids Persians gave certain Kurds relative autonomy. In the 18th century, the Safavid dynasty fell and the Ottoman government became centralized,
this led to the rise of the Kurdish confederacies, like that of Botan dynasty, which includes Badir khan as one of her leaders.


http://www.nineveh.com/Assyria%20or%20Kurdistan.html

probably the kurds wont like the contain of this articale, however he has sourced things he writes....so those are not wild claims.

[Piling]

But perhaps these historians had been translated in English, so the original source and mention of chapters and page could be useful. I don't work a lot about English sources for Arab literature and chroniclers, because French scholars had made a huge work of translation in Syria and Lebanon. English sources are more useful for me concerning Iranian and Indian worlds.

[Vladimir]

Fred Aprim didn't read Ozoglu in the right way and is cherry picking. He isn't reading history to study it, but history to promote his own nationalism. Like many other nationalist historians do. This is pseudo-history. Fixed identities or regions don't exist.

[zurderer]

Yeah for this reason it is not a perfect multi-ethny name, but Kurdistan is also a historical and geographical namen not a sudden creation like "Turkey".


Sudden, even 11th century, anatolia is called as turkia.. It is just ottomans did not used this word.. Of course, 900 year is sudden. By the way, when did french history began? It is sudden too.