The DNA of Kurdistan

[Zert]

No, bro in contrary we are one of the least tested groups so far. In ftDNA Armenians are the most tested ones I have seen. Also in 23andme Turks, Iranians, Asssyrians are by far "overtested" compared to the 10-20 Kurdish individuals.

Depends on whom you compare it with, Azeris barely have any members. And btw, I believe there are more Kurds in Dodecad than there are Iranians. In any case, we indeed need more Kurds tested.

Something to add. The Carduchois lived throughout North Kurdistan, but only Sernak, Hakkari and Mardin where under their control. Carduchois used to worship the sky, the woods and Teshub (the sun). Carduchois where more likely a mix between Hurrian-Gutian and Scythic tribes. in Hakkari (Botan) and Badinan they found old stelae similar to those in Ukraine.

Well, at a certain time their rule was extended until Diyarbakir, and they also controlled the Wan area; when you read the Anabasis, Xenephon succeeds in fleeing the Carduchian lands by crossing the 'Centrites river', at the headwaters of Tigris/Euphrates, this river might in fact have been the Aras river. Though, it seems a bit too much North, this writer seems to believe it:
http://books.google.be/books?id=3-AyP-L ... er&f=false

I'll have to read into it a bit more.

[Kurdistano]

No, bro in contrary we are one of the least tested groups so far. In ftDNA Armenians are the most tested ones I have seen. Also in 23andme Turks, Iranians, Asssyrians are by far "overtested" compared to the 10-20 Kurdish individuals.

Depends on whom you compare it with, Azeris barely have any members. And btw, I believe there are more Kurds in Dodecad than there are Iranians.

more 23andme tested individuals true, but there are more tested Iranian individuals overall from older studies which were used by Dienekes but only 2 studies about Kurds, which one of them is from South Kurdistan and the other from Kurds living in Kazakhstan.

[Kurdistano]

I would like to test myself but its to expensive 200-400 dollars.

What do you expect from such a test? I think this is absurd.

Cewlik you should be tested, I think your results would be interesting cause you belong to the Group of Kurds which we do lack in 23andme. Are you Shafii Kurdish like me?

[Zert]

It's impossible that the Carduchians lived as much north as that writer claims (he puts them Northwest of Van), that goes against all other sources I've read of the Carduchians.

I just looked up some stuff, and the idea that I first had of the Carduchians living in the Wan area was incorrect. They lived just a bit south of it, it seems.

[jjmuneer]

Weren't the Gutians located in now what is South-eastern Kurdistan? (kirmanshah and Ilam)? I think more Pahlawani speakers should be tested in E.Kurdistan. I think Fayli Malik Shahis and Moosis should be tested aswell. I'll try and get some of my family members in Sweden to buy a kit. I'd need to test a male from my maternal side aswell.

[Zert]

Weren't the Gutians located in now what is South-eastern Kurdistan?

They lived in the Zagros area, northwest of Ilam (just like you said), and in the northeastern fringes of Mesopotamia, not too far from the areas where the Carduchians are believed to have lived.

[Kurdistano]

It's impossible that the Carduchians lived as much north as that writer claims (he puts them Northwest of Van), that goes against all other sources I've read of the Carduchians.

I just looked up some stuff, and the idea that I first had of the Carduchians living in the Wan area was incorrect. They lived just a bit south of it, it seems.

Nope the writer is correct. The carduchois lived throughout of today known North Kurdistan. the Roman Strabo locates Corduene between Mus and Diyarbakir while Jewish sources claim that Ararat was located in Corduene in Armenia (under Armenian Tigrans rule probably) another source the Aramaic calls all of today known North Kurdistan "Beth Qardu" what basically means land of the Karduchi and which is also a term still used for Kurds.

[Kurdistano]

Weren't the Gutians located in now what is South-eastern Kurdistan? (kirmanshah and Ilam)? I think more Pahlawani speakers should be tested in E.Kurdistan. I think Fayli Malik Shahis and Moosis should be tested aswell. I'll try and get some of my family members in Sweden to buy a kit. I'd need to test a male from my maternal side aswell.

Why that we already got 2 Feyli individuals. All Kurds have Gutian, Hurrian and North iranic genes as basic elements. In North Kurdistan additional Hethit genes.

[Zert]

Nope the writer is correct. The carduchois lived throughout of today known North Kurdistan. the Roman Strabo locates Corduene between Mus and Diyarbakir while Jewish sources claim that Ararat was located in Corduene in Armenia (under Armenian Tigrans rule probably) another source the Aramaic calls all of today known North Kurdistan "Beth Qardu" what basically means land of the Karduchi and which is also a term still used for Kurds.

Seems very unlikely. Ararat being located in Corduene was a misinterpretation, they were actually talking about Mount Qardu/Mount Judi, which is located in Shernakh. Furthermore, the river they crossed was most likely the eastern bank of the Tigris, just a bit south of Wan. I can't find a source except for that one book which mentions them as living in regions like contemporary Erzurum or Kars. That's because north of Wan/the Tigris Armenians lived.


Here, I indicated on this map the regions where I believe proto-Kurds lived within Kurdistan. This might be controversial, but I don't care.
Red: Mannaeans, a people wholely absorbed by the Medeans, lived around Urmia.
Blue: areas where Medean settlements can be found. Also, areas of the Kurdish king Madig.
Yellow: Gutian areas.
Green: Carduchian areas.

O, another people I'd like to see tested is the Alan tribe. If they test more Iranic, or show up as more 'East European' than average, they might indeed be descendants of the Scythian Alans.

[jjmuneer]

Weren't the Gutians located in now what is South-eastern Kurdistan? (kirmanshah and Ilam)? I think more Pahlawani speakers should be tested in E.Kurdistan. I think Fayli Malik Shahis and Moosis should be tested aswell. I'll try and get some of my family members in Sweden to buy a kit. I'd need to test a male from my maternal side aswell.

Why that we already got 2 Feyli individuals. All Kurds have Gutian, Hurrian and North iranic genes as basic elements. In North Kurdistan additional Hethit genes.

2 Feylis from the same tribe, were probably from the same family aswell. I'm sure if other Feylis from a different tribe were tested they'd get different results.

I thought the Hurrian influence was limited to N.Kurdistan and the South. I think E.Kurdistan is less Hurrian influenced, though I could be wrong. E.Kurds to seem to share light hair and eyes, and exhibit narrower/longer faces in comparison to North and South Kurds. This is in general I mean. Well with the exception of Hakkari Kurds, who look quite similar to Fayli Kurds in my opinion.

[jjmuneer]

Nope the writer is correct. The carduchois lived throughout of today known North Kurdistan. the Roman Strabo locates Corduene between Mus and Diyarbakir while Jewish sources claim that Ararat was located in Corduene in Armenia (under Armenian Tigrans rule probably) another source the Aramaic calls all of today known North Kurdistan "Beth Qardu" what basically means land of the Karduchi and which is also a term still used for Kurds.

Seems very unlikely. Ararat being located in Corduene was a misinterpretation, they were actually talking about Mount Qardu/Mount Judi, which is located in Shernakh. Furthermore, the river they crossed was most likely the eastern bank of the Tigris, just a bit south of Wan. I can't find a source except for that one book which mentions them as living in regions like contemporary Erzurum or Kars. That's because north of Wan/the Tigris Armenians lived.


Here, I indicated on this map the regions where I believe proto-Kurds lived within Kurdistan. This might be controversial, but I don't care.
Red: Mannaeans, a people wholely absorbed by the Medeans, lived around Urmia.
Blue: areas where Medean settlements can be found. Also, areas of the Kurdish king Madig.
Yellow: Gutian areas.
Green: Carduchian areas.

O, another people I'd like to see tested is the Alan tribe. If they test more Iranic, or show up as more 'East European' than average, they might indeed be descendants of the Scythian Alans.

Aren't the Alans's tribe Soranis?
It is strange though isn't it, that genes and physical appearence don't correlate. I mean that personally, and to my fellow tribe members, also other Kurds. Considering North Kurds seem to have more of a Hurrian component or atleast a stronger Hurrian component, they seem to have more R1a1a compared to E.Kurds. I said to Kurdistano before, though he says the J1 is native to Anatolia, which is probably the case.

Anyways what do you think about the Parthian ancestry of Fayli Kurds? Apparently that is where we derive our ancestry from, rather than the Medes, including the other pahliwani speakers.

[Zert]

Aren't the Alans's tribe Soranis?

Eh, I guess?

It is strange though isn't it, that genes and physical appearence don't correlate. I mean that personally, and to my fellow tribe members, also other Kurds.

Normally they should. Could you diverge upon this?

Considering North Kurds seem to have more of a Hurrian component or atleast a stronger Hurrian component, they seem to have more R1a1a compared to E.Kurds. I said to Kurdistano before, though he says the J1 is native to Anatolia, which is probably the case.

I'm not sure whether they've got more R1a1a, the Dersimis apparantly have high R1a1a, but they all have histories about coming from Khorasan. Other Northern Kurds have barely been tested, as Kurdistano said.

Anyways what do you think about the Parthian ancestry of Fayli Kurds? Apparently that is where we derive our ancestry from, rather than the Medes, including the other pahliwani speakers.

I know of an old source in which Kurdish was identified as being Parthian with a Median influence. I don't know why specifically Feylis would be Parthian-descended though, could you give me a source of that? Seems interesting.

[Kurdistano]

Nope the writer is correct. The carduchois lived throughout of today known North Kurdistan. the Roman Strabo locates Corduene between Mus and Diyarbakir while Jewish sources claim that Ararat was located in Corduene in Armenia (under Armenian Tigrans rule probably) another source the Aramaic calls all of today known North Kurdistan "Beth Qardu" what basically means land of the Karduchi and which is also a term still used for Kurds.

Seems very unlikely. Ararat being located in Corduene was a misinterpretation, they were actually talking about Mount Qardu/Mount Judi, which is located in Shernakh. Furthermore, the river they crossed was most likely the eastern bank of the Tigris, just a bit south of Wan. I can't find a source except for that one book which mentions them as living in regions like contemporary Erzurum or Kars. That's because north of Wan/the Tigris Armenians lived.


Here, I indicated on this map the regions where I believe proto-Kurds lived within Kurdistan. This might be controversial, but I don't care.
Red: Mannaeans, a people wholely absorbed by the Medeans, lived around Urmia.
Blue: areas where Medean settlements can be found. Also, areas of the Kurdish king Madig.
Yellow: Gutian areas.
Green: Carduchian areas.

O, another people I'd like to see tested is the Alan tribe. If they test more Iranic, or show up as more 'East European' than average, they might indeed be descendants of the Scythian Alans.

Bro you let yourself clearly and easily be manipulated by propaganda because of your more humanistic sense (nothing negative ). Jewish sources clearly talk about mount Ararat when they say its located in Corduene. Your map makes no sense. A person just needs to use his common sense to see that it is impossible that Kurds did not live north of lake van. I have seen tens of maps of european travelers all of them show clear Kurdish presence high up to Kars. How does it make sense to assume Kurds moved into Northern areas after the armenian genocide? For Gods sake even if every Kurdish family did have more than 10 children it is impossible to replace the population of such a huge area within only 20 years! If there was no Kurdish presence outside of former known Corduene so where did Sherefhan al Bitlisi (Its in his name!) came from? Why was his tribe the biggest and also ruling group of Bitlis in the 16 century! How is this possible if there was no strong Kurdish presence in these areas?

Bro you are a smart Guy so please use more common sense and do not blockade it from your humanist character

[Kurdistano]

Weren't the Gutians located in now what is South-eastern Kurdistan? (kirmanshah and Ilam)? I think more Pahlawani speakers should be tested in E.Kurdistan. I think Fayli Malik Shahis and Moosis should be tested aswell. I'll try and get some of my family members in Sweden to buy a kit. I'd need to test a male from my maternal side aswell.

Why that we already got 2 Feyli individuals. All Kurds have Gutian, Hurrian and North iranic genes as basic elements. In North Kurdistan additional Hethit genes.

2 Feylis from the same tribe, were probably from the same family aswell. I'm sure if other Feylis from a different tribe were tested they'd get different results.

I thought the Hurrian influence was limited to N.Kurdistan and the South. I think E.Kurdistan is less Hurrian influenced, though I could be wrong. E.Kurds to seem to share light hair and eyes, and exhibit narrower/longer faces in comparison to North and South Kurds. This is in general I mean. Well with the exception of Hakkari Kurds, who look quite similar to Fayli Kurds in my opinion.

The word Kelhurri is a different pronouncing of Gel Hurri, which basically means Hurrian folks. Kassites, Manneans and other well known Hurrian or Hurrian related Groups lived in East Kurdistan.

[jjmuneer]

Aren't the Alans's tribe Soranis?

Eh, I guess?

It is strange though isn't it, that genes and physical appearence don't correlate. I mean that personally, and to my fellow tribe members, also other Kurds.

Normally they should. Could you diverge upon this?

Considering North Kurds seem to have more of a Hurrian component or atleast a stronger Hurrian component, they seem to have more R1a1a compared to E.Kurds. I said to Kurdistano before, though he says the J1 is native to Anatolia, which is probably the case.

I'm not sure whether they've got more R1a1a, the Dersimis apparantly have high R1a1a, but they all have histories about coming from Khorasan. Other Northern Kurds have barely been tested, as Kurdistano said.

Anyways what do you think about the Parthian ancestry of Fayli Kurds? Apparently that is where we derive our ancestry from, rather than the Medes, including the other pahliwani speakers.

I know of an old source in which Kurdish was identified as being Parthian with a Median influence. I don't know why specifically Feylis would be Parthian-descended though, could you give me a source of that? Seems interesting.

Well I don't have a specific source, but Kurstanica Mehrad Izady stated that we were Parthian descended, or atleast the word fayli was a corruption of the word Pahli, so we should apparently be called Pahli Kurds.

Oh regarding what I said about Northern Kurds well compared to E.Kurds they are more broader faced. I would of thought the Iranic tribes would have had an impact on their physical appearence, in high percentage of Dolicephalic people and long faced people. I suppose it is a mix of Hurrian and Iranic.