Do you guys consider Hewramans to be Pahli Kurds?

[jjmuneer]

I know this will stirr up some debate, but I wanted to make this thread anyway. It has kind of been bugging me. Would you guys consider Hewramis to be Pahli Kurds? I know they don't speak Laki like Pahlis(Faylis), but I was thinking about it Hewramis also speak a Gurani sub-dialect. Which does have differeniations to Laki, but its not that much. So if the dialects were merged would you consider them to be apart of the Pahli Kurds, since they are also meant to be descended from the Parthians that settled in the region. Would you agree with the proposal of some Kurds that there should be a single unified Gurani dialect in the region preferabbly called Kurdi Xawarig or Kurdi Pahli? Though I find the probably is Kirmanshani(Khalori) is much more similar to Sorani than the pahliwani languages.

http://www.kurdishacademy.org/?q=node/44

Southern dialects group
In far southern Kurdistan, both in Iraq and Iran, in an area from Shehreban to Dínewer, Hemedan, Kirmashan, and Xanekin, all the way to Mendelí, Pehle, Southern Kurdish Dialects group predominates. It is also the language of the populous Kakay tribe near Kerkúk and the Zengenes near Kifri. The Kurdish colony of western Baluchistdn is also primarily Gurâni speaking. There are also poulous pockets of Southern Kurdish Dialects group found in the Alburz mountains (see map).

Southern Kurdish Dialects group and its dialects (Laki) began their retreat in the 17th and 18th centuries and are now still under great pressure from Central Kurdish Dialects group speakers. With the avalanche of the Southern Kurdish refugees, nearly all speakers of Central Kurdish Dialects group, into eastern and southern Kurdistan (Kurdistan in Iran), the process of Southern Kurdish Dialects group dilution and assimilation has been hastened tremendously. Kirmashan, once the center of the Southern Kurdish Dialects group, is now a multi-lipgtial city, and very likely has a Central Kurdish Dialects group plurality.

The past expanse of Southern Kurdish Dialects group can still be detected in pockets of Gurâni-speaking farmers from the environs of Hekkarí in Turkey to Mosul (the Bajelans), and to Shehreban-Iess than forty miles northeast of Baghdad. Other major dialects of Souther Kurdish Dialects group, besides Bajelaní, are Kelhirí, Guraní, Nankilí, Kendúley, Senjabí, Zengene, Kakayí (or Dargazini), and Kirmashaní. Today, there are roughly 1.5 mil'lion Southern Kurdish Dialects speakers in Kurdistan.

Baba Tahir (ca. 1000-1060) of Hemedan is one of the very first poets in the East to write rubaiyats, the medium of Omar Khayyam’s fame. Baba Tahir’s rusticity and mastery of both Laki/Hewramí, Persian (and Arabic) have rendered his works unusually dear to the common people of both nations. His particular poetic meter is perhaps a legacy of the pre-Islamic poetic tradition of southeastern and central Kurdistan, or the celebrated "Pahlawiyât/Fahlawiyât," or more specific the "Awrânat" style of balladry. Many Yaresan religious works and Jilwa, the holy hymns of the Yezidi prophet Shaykh Adi, are also in this Pahlawiyât style of verse. Baba Tahir himself has now ascended to a high station in the indigenous Kurdish religion of Yaresanism as one of the avatars of the Universal Spirit.

The term Pehlewaní itself has clearly evolved from Pahlawand, i.e., that of "Pahla". Pahla comprised southern Kurdistan and northern Lurestan, perhaps the original home area of the language. The word Pahla is still preserved in corrupted from in the Kurdish tribal name Feylí or "Pehlí", who incidentally still reside in southern Kurdistan, in the old Pahla region.

Laki, This vernacular is just a major dialect of Gurâni and is treated here separately not on linguistic grounds, but ethnological. The speakers of Laki have been steadily pulling away from the main body of Kurds, increasingly associating with their neighbouring ethnic group, the Lurs. The phenomenon is most visible among the educated Laks and the urbanites the countryside, the commoners still consider themselves Kurds in regions bordering other parts of Kurdistan, and Laks or Lurs where they border the Lurs. The process is a valuable living example of the dynamics through which the entire southern Zagros has been permanently lost by the Kurds since the late medieval period: an ethnic metamorphosis that converted the Lurs, Celus, Mamasanis, and Shabankdras into a new ethnic group (the greater Lurish ethnic group), independent of the Kurds.

Laki is presently spoken in the areas south of Hamadân and including the towns of Nahawand, Tuisirkân, Nurâbâd, Ilâm, Gelân, and Pahla (Pehle), as well as the countryside in the districts of Horru, Selasela, Silâkhur, and the northern Alishtar in western Iran. There are also major Laki colonies spread from Khurâsân to the Mediterranean Sea. Pockets of Laki speakers are found in Azerbaijan, the Alburz mountains, the Caspian coastal region, the Khurasani enclave (as far south as Birjand), the mountainous land between Qum and Kâshân, and the region between Adiyaman and the Ceyhan river in far western Kurdistan in Anatolia. There are also many Kurdish tribes named Lak who now speak other Kurdish dialects (or other languages altogether) and are found from Adana to central Anatolia in Turkey, in Daghistân in the Russian Caucasus, and from Ahar to the suburbs of Teheran in Iran.

The syntax and vocabulary of Laki have been profoundly altered by Luri, itself an offshoot of New Persian, a Southwest Iranic language. The basic grammar and verb systems of Laki are, like in all other Kurdish dialects, clearly Northwest Iranic. This relationship is further affirmed by remnants in Laki of the Kurdish grammatical hallmark, the ergative construction. The Laki language is therefore fundamentally different from Luri, and sin-iilar to Kurdish.

There are at least 1.5 million Laki speakers at present, and possibly many more, as they are often counted as Lurs.

The Pahli (Kurdish: Pehlí, په‌هلی also called Fayli or Faili) Kurds are an integral part of the Kurdish Nation, speaking the Laki dialect of Kurdish.

The roots of the Pahli (Fayli or Faili) Kurds go back to the Indo-European immigrants of the 1st millennium BC. The Pahlis are roughly equally divided between the followers of Shiite Islam and the native Kurdish religion of Yazdanism (the Ahl-i Haqq branch). Conversion into Shi'ite Islam among the Pahli Kurds began during the reign of the Safavid dynasty in Persia (1507-1721).

There are many folk stories and etymologies for the "meaning" of the name Pahli/Fayli/Faili. In his book, Mu'jam al-buldan, the geographer Yaqut of Hama notes in 13th century that the Pahli/Faili who reside the mountains separating Persia from Iraq are called Faili/Pahli because they are as huge as elephants (from "fil", Arabic for elephant)! Others proposed that the name was that of a ruler of the area, given later to his subjects. Some of these folkloric accounts are discussed by Khusrow Goran in his book Kurdistan Through Eyes "volume I (Stockholm, 1992).

The historical fact on the root of the name of the Pahli is fully clear. As M. R. Izady notes in his work (The Kurds: A Concise Handbook, London, 1992), the territory inhabited by the Pahli/Fayli Kurds was known as "Pahla" (meaning "Parthia") since the 3rd century AD. The area boasted to one of the most important Parthian settlements outside Parthia proper (or Khurasan). The name "Pahla" was likewise used for the area by the early Muslim geographer until the 13th century, after which the name "Luristan" gradually came to replace it. The Arabic texts recorded the name as "Fahla" or "Bahla", (Arabic lacks the letter "p"). From "Fahla" has since evolved Faila and Faili -- the modern name of the Pahli Kurds. In fact, there is still a small town called Pahla in the south of the major city of Ilam in South Kurdistan which is the heart of traditional settlement occupied by Pahlis.

Here is the map of the dialect groups:

Here is the outline of Pahla(South-eastern) Kurdistan:



Here are some of the major clans and tribes in the region:

[kurd-sthanam]

i think the last map is wrong. why does there stay judikan far south? judikans are kurmanj and speak western variant kurmanji, they live also in anatolia. mt. Judi is in between zaxo and shirnex.

[jjmuneer]

i think the last map is wrong. why does there stay judikan far south? judikans are kurmanj and speak western variant kurmanji, they live also in anatolia. mt. Judi is in between zaxo and shirnex.

The last map isn't showing tribe or clan, its just traditional provinces. Though I'm not sure why southern Ilam province is called that. Though I said Hewramans should be united along with all the other southern Kurdish dialects. I don't really like Kurdi Xawarig, as the name is false and the unity of it is also false. There plenty of Sorani speakers in Kirmanshan and other areas of SE Kurdistan, though its in more urban areas.

Actually I take all that back. Just look on the linguistic map you see there are sorani speakers all the way in the south of Ilam. I doubt they are the majority in the area though but they do exist. Not sure if it just corrupted Laki.

[hevalo27]

we can say for sure, that hawrami and kirmancki is a different language as the kurmanci language.
there was a proto kurdish language whish seperated in early times in proto Kurmanci and proto Gorani.
then proto gorani seperated in proto-kirmancki and proto-hawrami. along time after that proto kurmanci seperated in proto-north and proto-south kurmanci.
and at the end proto-northkurmanci seperated in two languages, which is todays kurmanci and sorani, while proto-southkurmanci seperated earlyier (feyli, kalhori, laki...).

all this kurdish languages are not remain purely, what is a natural process, instead of that all kurdish languages are intertwined together.
so you share similarities with sorani and hawrami, because of hawrami influence, in southkurdistan they originally spoked hawrami, for example there was the erdalan princedome. there was it the official language.

from all kurdish languages kurmanci and zazaki are at farthest apart, the other are between them. feyli is somewhere between hawrami and kurmanci.

my source is kurdishacademy and my intelligence its the only logical explanation

[jjmuneer]

we can say for sure, that hawrami and kirmancki is a different language as the kurmanci language.
there was a proto kurdish language whish seperated in early times in proto Kurmanci and proto Gorani.
then proto gorani seperated in proto-kirmancki and proto-hawrami. along time after that proto kurmanci seperated in proto-north and proto-south kurmanci.
and at the end proto-northkurmanci seperated in two languages, which is todays kurmanci and sorani, while proto-southkurmanci seperated earlyier (feyli, kalhori, laki...).

all this kurdish languages are not remain purely, what is a natural process, instead of that all kurdish languages are intertwined together.
so you share similarities with sorani and hawrami, because of hawrami influence, in southkurdistan they originally spoked hawrami, for example there was the erdalan princedome. there was it the official language.

from all kurdish languages kurmanci and zazaki are at farthest apart, the other are between them. feyli is somewhere between hawrami and kurmanci.

my source is kurdishacademy and my intelligence its the only logical explanation

Proto-Gurani was basically an offshoot off old Pahlawani.
By the way Fayli(Laki) is not South Kirmanci, people always get confused with this. It is classed as Southern Kurdish language, but only some idiot ultra-nationalists have created this thing called Kurdi Xawarig. It may unite the southern Kurdish dialects, but it completely ignores the fact Laki along with Hewrami is a Gurani language. Khaluri is not the same as Pahli, their dialect is basically south Kirmanci and its more related to Sorani. I'm not sure why their dialect is closer to Sorani, but it may be because of Sorani influence from North east Kurdistan. Same applies to Zanganas, some of their tribes speak Laki, but some speak a different dialect that is like Sorani.

This shows the sub dialects and explains it better:
http://www.kurdishacademy.org/?q=image/tid/6

Laki, This vernacular is just a major dialect of Gurâni and is treated here separately not on linguistic grounds, but ethnological.

The Pahli (Kurdish: Pehlí, په‌هلی also called Fayli or Faili) Kurds are an integral part of the Kurdish Nation, speaking the Laki dialect of Kurdish.

Southern Kurdish Dialects group and its dialects (Laki) began their retreat in the 17th and 18th centuries and are now still under great pressure from Central Kurdish Dialects group speakers. With the avalanche of the Southern Kurdish refugees, nearly all speakers of Central Kurdish Dialects group, into eastern and southern Kurdistan (Kurdistan in Iran), the process of Southern Kurdish Dialects group dilution and assimilation has been hastened tremendously. Kirmashan, once the center of the Southern Kurdish Dialects group, is now a multi-lipgtial city, and very likely has a Central Kurdish Dialects group plurality.

[kurd-sthanam]

bremin you have mehrdad izadys ideas we have different ideas. (our are more common and accepted)

i agree hevalo, feyli is kurdi xwarig. if you look at feyli and kurmanci you will see clear that hewrami is different. with grammar, phonology and allmost all. laki is between feyli sorani and hewrami.

example the personal pronouns:
feyli: me, tu, ew, îme, îwe, ewane
sorani: min, to, ew, ême, êwe, ewane
kurmanc: ez/min, tu/te, ew, em/me, hûn/we, ewana/wan
hewrami: min, to, ad, êma, shma, adê

[hevalo27]

By the way Fayli(Laki) is not South Kirmanci, people always get confused with this. It is classed as Southern Kurdish language,

na na hevale heja, you misunderstand, let me explain. the linguists who say feyli is southkurdish, they simultaneously classifie hewrami and zazaki as non-kurdish. the mistake is that the word "kurd" was not the own name of them. persians and arabs used the word kurd as kollective name for iranic tribes with same and similar culture, manners who mixxed and lived together (ethnic kurds). if the linguistics speaks about kurdish, it mean in reality kurmanci and use it as synonymous, because they dont know it better. kurds himself never used in the past the word kurdish to describe any language, even today a kurmanc kurd says i am kurmanc and my language is kurmanci.

what i want say the term "kurd" never described a special language, it described an ethnic group with similar languages who had an common root (proto-kurdish).

read this comment from @zert in the topic "ancient origin of the kurds, especially the last sentence, because i agree with him :

Origin of the term "Kurd"

Another great point of dispute is the name of the Kurds. Some will say it's a name that has been existence for millenia, others point out that the first attestation of it was during the Arab conquests to denote Iranic nomads. Let's diverge into this matter further.

The First Kurd

The first proper mention of the term "Kurd" was during the Sassanid period (AD 224–AD 651). During this period we'll see two prominent groups of "Kurds" described in historical texts.

Let's take a look:

The Kârnâmag î Ardashîr î Babagân
('Book of the Deeds of Ardashir, son of Babag')

CHAPTER 5.

Afterwards he (viz., Ardashir), having collected many soldiers and heroes of Zavul, proceeded to battle against Mâdîg, the King of the Kurds. There was much fighting and bloodshed (in which) the army of Ardashir (finally) sustained a defeat. Ardashir became anxious on account of his own army. (On his way back) he came at night through a desert which contained neither water nor food, so he himself with all his troops and horses came to hunger and thirst. (Marching onward) he saw, from a distance, a fire belonging to (some) shepherds, and there Ardashir went and beheld an old man living with (his) cattle on a mountain-steppe. Ardashir passed the night there, and the next day he asked them (viz., the shepherds) about the road. They said: "Three frasangs hence there is a very fertile village which has many inhabitants and plenty of food." Ardashir went to that village, and dispatched a person to send to his capital his entire cavalry.

The army of Madig boasted thus: "Now there should be no fear of Ardashir, as on account of his defeat he has returned to Pars.

(Meanwhile) Ardashir, having prepared an army of four thousand men, rushed upon them (viz., the Kurds), and surprised them with a night attack. He killed one thousand of the Kurds, (while) others were wounded and taken prisoners; and out of the Kurds (that were imprisoned) he sent to Pars their king with his sons, brothers, children, his abundant wealth and property.



Link: http://www.avesta.org/pahlavi/karname.htm

A Letter to Ardashir I, from his enemy, Ardavan V

You've bitten off more than you can chew
and you have brought death to yourself.
0 son of a Kurd, raised in the tents of
the Kurds, who gave you permission to put
a crown on your head?



Link: http://www.kavehfarrokh.com/wp-content/ ... c-iran.pdf

From the same source:

Rashid Yasami believes that the Kurds' original home was Fars. He cites as evidence the Persian historian Beihaqi (c. 1000 A.D.). Each reason and area has something associated with it: the wise men of Greece, the painters of China...and the Kurds (akrad) of Fars. According to Yasami, not only were the Kurds of Fars a major support of Sassanian power, but Ardashir I, the founder of the empire, was himself a Kurd. He says that Sasan, Ardashir's
grandfather, married Ram Behesht of the Bazanjan Kurds, who, according to istakhri, were one of the five Kurdish tribes of Fars. Their son Pgpak took advantage of his Kurdish connections and sent his son Ardashir as governor to Darabgerd (Darab), which was the center of the Chupanan, or Shabankareh, the large federation of tribes to which the Banzanjan belonged and who had been Sasan's original protectors. These same Kurds of Fars now became Ardashir's supporters in his revolt against Ardavan V, the Arsacid ruler.



Now, the general consensus is that during these times "Kurd" was solely used as a social term for nomads and shepherds of Iranic origin. Though, I have a few remarks to make:
-Madig and his troops, centered around Kermanshah, don't seem to have been nomads nor shepherds; they appeared to have been sedentary and to be warriors.
-In Ardavan V's wordings one can clearly see the social background of the term, but interestingly, the tribe of which Ardashir I descended (Shabankareh) seems to have survived until today, in the form of a Kurdish tribe near Kermanshah. Indeed, a tribe by the name of Shabankara is based there.

Earlier forms

However, similar terms have been attested throughout the millenia in Mesopotomia. Indeed, "Kur", "Guti", "Carduchi", "Cyrtii" all denoted peoples inhabiting the Zagros mountains. Some of these were thought to simply denote all barbarian tribes in mountain territory North of Mesopotamia, regardless of ethnicity.

Thoughts of F. Hennerbichler:

Similar, “Kurd” seems to derive from the assumed Sumerian originated word stem “kur”, first recorded millennia back B.C.E., meaning [kur = mountain/land] > “inhabitants of the mountains” or casually mountaineers (“Bergler”). The umbrella compound expression “kur”-com- prises also a variety of terms, some sound similar like “kur-ti”, in a wider sense “kar-da” too, others completely different like G/K/Quti, Lullubi, Arrapha, Urbilum, Zamua, Mehri or Ba-banhi, and in addition et aliae translated into Greek and Roman like Kárdakes, Carduchi, or Cyrtii (Cyrtioi). Which illustrates as well, that not all Kurds (speakers of the “Kurdish Complex”) share this family name (compound term label), but obviously most of them call themselves “Kurd” and identify with a com-mon homeland “Kurdistan” (land of Kurds).


Link: http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperDownl ... erID=19564

Is it possible that this ancient term was simply copied by the Persians and Arabs to denote a people with similar customs and zone of inhabitation? You be the judge, but it seems likely to me.

[kurd-sthanam]

so if we conclude feyli are linguistical more close to kurmanc and central kurdish...

so what with ethnics? i know kurds are one ethnic, but you can divide it as like this in terms of tradition and so:

North eastern kurds (shafi. east variant kurmanji dialect)
North western kurds (hanafi, alewi. western-kurmanji)
yezidi (west and east kurmanji)
xorasan (west-kurmanji, shia)
Zaza (alewi)
Zaza (shafi)
Central (central kurdish and hewrami speakers, shafi)
Yazdan (hewrami,kakai)
South/feyli (shia kurds)

[hevalo27]

what is an ethnic group?
they have commen history, tale, cloths, language, dances, music and tune, a social form (the clan-system and the nomad life), food, religion, some more special and traditionell features and the most important thing -> the own name. if you see yourself as a kurd, then you are a kurd, even if you are a turk or arab bastard or vice versa.

all kurds have many similarities and the rest is cultural wealth

[jjmuneer]

bremin you have mehrdad izadys ideas we have different ideas. (our are more common and accepted)

i agree hevalo, feyli is kurdi xwarig. if you look at feyli and kurmanci you will see clear that hewrami is different. with grammar, phonology and allmost all. laki is between feyli sorani and hewrami.

example the personal pronouns:
feyli: me, tu, ew, îme, îwe, ewane
sorani: min, to, ew, ême, êwe, ewane
kurmanc: ez/min, tu/te, ew, em/me, hûn/we, ewana/wan
hewrami: min, to, ad, êma, shma, adê

Are you serious? Feylis speak Laki. We have pahli descended.

We don't say ewane, we say xwayan.

[jjmuneer]

so if we conclude feyli are linguistical more close to kurmanc and central kurdish...

so what with ethnics? i know kurds are one ethnic, but you can divide it as like this in terms of tradition and so:

North eastern kurds (shafi. east variant kurmanji dialect)
North western kurds (hanafi, alewi. western-kurmanji)
yezidi (west and east kurmanji)
xorasan (west-kurmanji, shia)
Zaza (alewi)
Zaza (shafi)
Central (central kurdish and hewrami speakers, shafi)
Yazdan (hewrami,kakai)
South/feyli (shia kurds)

But which linguistic classifies the language group like that?
Laki is under the Gurani language category. Only some fayli tribes speak mixed fayli with Sorani.

[jjmuneer]

na na hevale heja, you misunderstand, let me explain. the linguists who say feyli is southkurdish, they simultaneously classifie hewrami and zazaki as non-kurdish. the mistake is that the word "kurd" was not the own name of them. persians and arabs used the word kurd as kollective name for iranic tribes with same and similar culture, manners who mixxed and lived together (ethnic kurds). if the linguistics speaks about kurdish, it mean in reality kurmanci and use it as synonymous, because they dont know it better. kurds himself never used in the past the word kurdish to describe any language, even today a kurmanc kurd says i am kurmanc and my language is kurmanci.

Fayli is nothing like Sorani espeically Kurmjani, there are some similarities but that is in all Kurdish dialects. Fayli(Ilami) which is under the Laki catergory is much more similar to Hewrami. You don't even understand laki yourself, neither could any other Sorani when I posted a we feyli video. Most scholars agree faylis(Pahlis) are the original descendants of the Parthians. We even have ancient town called Pahla in our region and many people in our tribe have old Parthian names. Well generally many Kurds in the region have old Parthian names, even the Soranis more North.

[jjmuneer]

Please don't show me the linguist Minorsiky or Kenzie, as they see Gurani and Dmili as seperate from being a Kurdish dialect all together. They even state our dialect is southern Kurdish(xawarig) which also includes Hewrami btw, but then they contridict themselves. By saying Hewrami isn't Kurdish.

Look the two main Kurdish groups are Mede(Kurmancis) and the Pahlis(Dmili Gurani), that is how it is and there is no point in denying it. I'm not talking about the Kurdish identity, but lingiistuics, so please don't deviate from the topic.

[hevalo27]

i will help you to understand. the lingustics say:

kurdish = northkurdish (kurmanci), centralkurdish (sorani) and southkurdish (feyli, laki, kalhori..)
zaza-goran (non-kurdish) = zazaki and gorani (hawrami)

most linguists and even kurds confirm that this classification is right

but there is a little mistake by the name kurdish, it never described a language or a group of languages, it described like zert wrote an ethnic group with common root, including zazas and hawramans.
so kurdish above is false, for the three languages (kurmanci, sorani, feyli) doesnt exist a branchname! so it named after their speakers in literature (kurdish branch), so zazaki and hawrami automatically becomes non-kurdish. just a mistake.

we can replace Kurdish with "kurmanc-soran-feyli" , then we have two big branches kurmanc-soran-feyli and zaza-goran in literature, and the term kurdish will gets his origin importance, a collective name for ethnic kurds, like persian and arabs did it in the past. so zazaki and hawrami is again kurdish

Fayli is nothing like Sorani espeically Kurmjani

it is a fact that feyli is a sub-language of kurmanci and vice verca. hawrami is far away. you can say to feyli (southkurmanci) or to kurmanci (northfeyli), nothing changes

[jjmuneer]

=))

i will help you to understand. the lingustics say:

kurdish = northkurdish (kurmanci), centralkurdish (sorani) and southkurdish (feyli, laki, kalhori..)
zaza-goran (non-kurdish) = zazaki and gorani (hawrami)

most linguists and even kurds confirm that this classification is right

but there is a little mistake by the name kurdish, it never described a language or a group of languages, it described like zert wrote an ethnic group with common root, including zazas and hawramans.
so kurdish above is false, for the three languages (kurmanci, sorani, feyli)it doesnt exist a name! it named after their speakers in literature, so zazaki and hawrami automatically becomes non-kurdish. just a mistake.

we can replace Kurdish with "kurmanc-soran-feyli" , then we have two big groups kurmanc-soran-feyli and zaza-goran in literature, and the term kurdish will gets his origin importance, a collective name for ethnic kurds, like persian and arabs did it in the past. so zazaki and hawrami is again kurdish

Fayli is nothing like Sorani espeically Kurmjani

it is a fact that feyli is a sub-language of kurmanci and far away from hawrami. you can say to feyli (southkurmanci) or to kurmanci (northfeyli) but it doesnt exist a name for it, so the literature named it like this people "kurdish"

So what is Gorani then? Pahli? But Fayli(Pahli) isn't Pahli? That makes no sense. It has no connections. Again I already told you Feyli is Laki, we are just a clan. See your getting confused. As some Kurds in the south identify as fayli who don't speak Laki, such as Khaluris(kirmahsanis), but the majority speak Laki which is derived from old Pahlawani, its all in the name. The fact we maintain our name goes to show. Yes Hawrami is more archaic, but none the less we have maintained our name through our clan. What I am saying is Laki is under the Gorani language category, but some linguistics identify it as just southern because they themselves get confused.

Are you saying Izady's study is wrong? Name me any other linguist that says otherwise, not minorsiky because he divides on ethnic lines, which is just stupid. Not Kenzie because as I said he groups Kirmanshani and Ilami(fayli) as the same. If you have any other linguist just tell me, because your opinion doesn't count if you can't back it up. Plus you cannot understand fayli as a Sorani speaker. Just accepts facts and it feels likes pan-soranism or something.

If Hewrami isn't southern Kurdish aswell then what does this say?

Other major dialects of Souther Kurdish Dialects group, besides Bajelaní, are Kelhirí, Guraní, Nankilí, Kendúley, Senjabí, Zengene, Kakayí (or Dargazini), and Kirmashaní. Today, there are roughly 1.5 mil'lion Southern Kurdish Dialects speakers in Kurdistan.

See as I said you cannot say one thing here then another somewhere else.