Jews Security Institute to help Turkey in Killing kurds !

[Nistiman]

I'm very disappointed that you would agree with "Pamela"'s statement that PKK is a terrorist organization.

I could entertain the assertion by those eager not to get on Turkey's bad side, but from a Kurd...it is down right shameless.

[Diri]

I'm very disappointed that you would agree with "Pamela"'s statement that PKK is a terrorist organization.

I could entertain the assertion by those eager not to get on Turkey's bad side, but from a Kurd...it is down right shameless.

Hey, you and I had this fight already... I am not calling the PKK a terrorist organization - that wasn't what I was agreeing to, damn it...

I was agreeing to the fact that we should... Oh damn - just read what I said before she said what she said...

[atlasshrugs]

My Post was directed to dyaoko...............I think the statements he made about the Jews were disgusting and wildly unfair.

BTW I never said PKK was islamist, I said it was a terrorist organization.

I said aligning youselves against America and Israel, is aligning yourselves with Radical Islamofascism.
I cannot believe that you could make the statements you have.

Do what you must do but I am sick from what you said........
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/kurds_free_the_kurds/index.html

I see where you stand. Pity. Not to worry, I won't be back

Pamela
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/kurds_free_the_kurds/index.html

[Diri]

My Post was directed to dyaoko...............I think the statements he made about the Jews were disgusting and wildly unfair.

BTW I never said PKK was islamist, I said it was a terrorist organization.

I said aligning youselves against America and Israel, is aligning yourselves with Radical Islamofascism.
I cannot believe that you could make the statements you have.

Do what you must do but I am sick from what you said........
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/kurds_free_the_kurds/index.html

I see where you stand. Pity. Not to worry, I won't be back

Pamela
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/kurds_free_the_kurds/index.html

LOL - please be more clear about who you are talking to...


I sure as hell never supported Islamists, anti-semites (some catagorize me as a Jew-lover) or terrorists...

However - I USED to support the PKK - BUT haven't done so since 1999 - because that son of a gun, Apo turned out to be a traitor...


I would like to know what it is exactly, which has disgusted you so much... Surely, you should know that nobody here stands on "islamofascists" side... We are Kurds - not Arabs...

[Nistiman]

Diri wrote:

Nistiman wrote:
I'm very disappointed that you would agree with "Pamela"'s statement that PKK is a terrorist organization.

I could entertain the assertion by those eager not to get on Turkey's bad side, but from a Kurd...it is down right shameless.


Hey, you and I had this fight already... I am not calling the PKK a terrorist organization - that wasn't what I was agreeing to, damn it... Confused

ok, didn't mean to pounce on you. your post just wasn't clear. *dusting off paws*

[Vladimir]

For some people the world is divided in two sides.

I support the Kurdish people not the PKK. They are just as bad as the Turkish army.. a lot of times.. If you label the PKK as terrorist, you should label the Turkish army as terrorists too..

Actually I am beginning to think some parts of the PKK work together with the Turkish state..

Dyoko doesn't know a lot about the PKK.. sorry.. med..

[tomjez]

I call PKK a terrorist organization.

It OFFICIALLY surrendered the Kurdistan Independance 15 years ago. It is not fighting for kurdish people, it is fighting for itslef, like a common mafia groups. They make war, cease fire, war again, they kill opponents, they work with the turkish army. They are not "freedom fighters", they are fighter of the useless, and there existence is a source of pain for kurdish people.

And saying that being america and israel is being islamofascist is a load of crap (I'm not again israël though!)

[Nistiman]

tomjez,

so you would like to classify the PKK as a terrorist organization for many reasons except for the one that really counts - the calculated targetting of civilians to create terror in a civilian population.

I don't want to give other Kurdish parties as an example - that doesn't benefit me - but your hostility towards the PKK needs to be put in context and the hypocrisy needs to be pointed out. The KDP and PUK spent a great portion of their 'struggle' fighting against each other, killing Kurds, and then joining with Turkey or Iran or Iraq and then killing some more Kurds. And of course, they did this because they always had a democratic federative Kurdistan in mind, right?

And no, I don't think the PUK nor the KDP are terrorist organizations. They are imperfect Kurdish liberation movements.

I don't like to chew the term 'terrorist' like gum in my mouth; i like to reserve it for those who are too jaded for dialogue, and who prefer to bomb coffee shops and behead innocents.

[Diri]

tomjez,

so you would like to classify the PKK as a terrorist organization for many reasons except for the one that really counts - the calculated targetting of civilians to create terror in a civilian population.

I don't want to give other Kurdish parties as an example - that doesn't benefit me - but your hostility towards the PKK needs to be put in context and the hypocrisy needs to be pointed out. The KDP and PUK spent a great portion of their 'struggle' fighting against each other, killing Kurds, and then joining with Turkey or Iran or Iraq and then killing some more Kurds. And of course, they did this because they always had a democratic federative Kurdistan in mind, right?

And no, I don't think the PUK nor the KDP are terrorist organizations. They are imperfect Kurdish liberation movements.

I don't like to chew the term 'terrorist' like gum in my mouth; i like to reserve it for those who are too jaded for dialogue, and who prefer to bomb coffee shops and behead innocents.

So you did what you weren't gonna do - now you will have to see the other side of the coin... What did the PKK actually do? It was the reason why there never was a freedom struggle in Syrian Kurdistan - and it is the reason why there hasn't been unity among Kurds in Northern Kurdistan - because it is maoist and that is not complimentary with Kurdish values...

[Nistiman]

i did what i didn't want to do. i don't like to point out the flaws of other kurdish parties to make a point. but, as i said, with respect to this point in particular, i think it is worthwhile to note that just because the PKK is fighting against a Western ally that is no reason in my book that double standards should be employed against them - although obviously not everybody thinks like me.

And, Diri, do you want to rehash this argument for the Third Time? I thought we were in agreement here -- whatever PKK did or did not achieve, they're STILL not a terrorist organization. I know you're itching to disagree, but you should know when to back off.

[tomjez]

I call PKK terrorist because it used terror to be the only kurdish party in Turkey. It uses terror to try to "remain" it.

Last statement by the PKK after UE admission was a scandal: "trying to separate the kurdish problem from the PKK will lead to more violence".

Who do they think they are??? Apo is PKK, PKK IS Kurdistan and kurdish people.

Today what do they do? Kill opponent, put landmines on the road to kill 5 soldiers from time to time. Does not look like an heroic liberation fight to me.

when they put elders and women on first line in useless "free apo" demonstration, they only want to create trouble between turks and kurds. Their means are despictable and that's all.

For the first time I hope that Turkish army will crush them, it has become the only way.

[abdur]

What makes pkk terrorist and kdp not?

resembles:
- both parties fight for power, pkk kills opponents in northern kurdistan
kdp fought some (civil) wars against puk

- both parties arent democratic, one party is led by barzani asiret, one is still led from prison by it's founder.

- both parties are being accused of executing enemy soldiers who were taken captive before. 1 example of pkk who executed 36? turkish soldiers back in the '90. 1 example of kdp who slaughtered pkk members in a "hospital" also in the '90.

differences:

- pkk had in the early years a policy of killing village guards and their family, turkish teachers, majors and some aga's. they also killed civilians from hostile villages in southern kurdistan.

- pkk is being accused numerously of drug trafficing.

- pkk has committed a couple suicide attacks.

About the 1st difference, it's not common anymore since 1996.

the 2nd difference is not really proven, but many people talk about it. What i do know for sure is that when the pkk gets their money from northern kurds in diaspora, i know kurdish drug trafficers are paying their part too. So its also drugs money what they are receiving, besides the legal money from other people.

Let's put the kdp aside now cause they are free of charge of being called terrorists, and compare the pkk with the turkish state.

I would say pkk had definately committed terrorist acts (politically motivated violence against civilians) see above, but the turkish state has done the same things numerous times; sometimes pretending to be guerilla's and raiding villages, by torture in cells, by supporting organisations like Hezbollah who were attacking kurdish intellectuals and businessman.

1st we should look if they committed this systematically, in both cases yes.
2nd we should look if they are still doing this systematically, in both cases no.

Would you guys therefore agree with me that both pkk and turkey were in their 1 war terrorist organisation/terrorist state, but that they are fighting now more like armies, without systematically killing civilians?

I am not talking right now which cause is better, and who is right/wrong, im just looking at the facts on the ground.

Today what do they do? Kill opponent, put landmines on the road to kill 5 soldiers from time to time. Does not look like an heroic liberation fight to me.

Today's wars are never heroic, therefore we watch hollywood.

What did the PKK actually do?

We will never know for sure what would have happen if apo didnt start the pkk. We had the Barzani revolutions in southern Kurdistan and some northern kurds did woke up back then for instance my father, but the aga's leaders didnt do anything against the turkish assimilation. The situation now could have been the same as in 1970, no war but also no cultural rights and too many kurds who would be ashamed of their origine.

Positive things since 1970 is that we dont have much of these aga's anymore, situation of the woman has been improved a little, the assimilation has been stopped in many area's and we have some cultural rights in turkish laws. Some people would say this all has happened thanks to the pkk.

[abdur]

Sorry for offtopic.

[Diri]

i did what i didn't want to do. i don't like to point out the flaws of other kurdish parties to make a point. but, as i said, with respect to this point in particular, i think it is worthwhile to note that just because the PKK is fighting against a Western ally that is no reason in my book that double standards should be employed against them - although obviously not everybody thinks like me.

And, Diri, do you want to rehash this argument for the Third Time? I thought we were in agreement here -- whatever PKK did or did not achieve, they're STILL not a terrorist organization. I know you're itching to disagree, but you should know when to back off.

I am itching to disgree? You are a sad person... You realy got it bad...

I don't need to prove anything to you - and threats like "back off" are only silly child games...

[Nistiman]

Diri

I am itching to disgree? You are a sad person... You realy got it bad...

I don't need to prove anything to you - and threats like "back off" are only silly child games...

Pfff. Now you're insulting me. If I were going to 'threaten' you I'd think of something more clever than "back off". It wasn't a threat...just a suggestion that while you may have obvious grievances with the PKK, you should know which battles to fight, and in the process of saving the kurdish struggle from Kemalism, you should not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Tomjez is clear...He says,

For the first time I hope that Turkish army will crush them, it has become the only way.

Is that your stance? And will you use every argument, however incorrect, in order to try to bring PKK down?

If that is your position - ask yourself whether it makes sense for you to have the same goal as the Turkish army ?

When I criticized the PKK, I never had the intention of dismantling it, only to dissuade it from its pro-Turkish policies. But, those policies can change, and we may be witnessing some sort of a shift. It is useful to be supple and agile in politics - one should be responsive and adapt to new situations.

Look at the so-called 'alternative' the Kurds were offered - the PWD. They came out criticizing Ocalan's 'line' and what they advocated was ten times worse! They accused Ocalan of capitulating to the enemy and then they were the ones who didn't have the word "KUrdistan" in their name, they are the ones who stood against the armed struggle and said it was unnecessary and they opted to operate as a political party within 'democratic' Turkey.

This is the 'solution' that is pressed upon the Kurds. That the PKK has maintained its guerrilla force and is capable of using it means that they are not under Turkish military 'control'. Had they been, they would have advocated what the PWD advocated.

I am going out on a limb here, but Ocalan, it appears, may have understood that Turkey was not and will not be 'negotiating'. I am quite happy with the decisions the PKK has taken in the last couple of months.

We have nothing to lose by giving PKK the benefit of the doubt at this time, but everything to lose if we do not remain alert to the developments.